[01:35]	<GarBage>	i hate when this happens...
[01:35]	<eozl>	man i've been at that for a year now :(
[01:36]	<GreatDay>	lol
[01:37]	<GarBage>	eozl: i only have two partitions, / and swap
[01:38]	<GreatDay>	well, I better not brag with my one partition and 10 gigs! :(
[01:41]	<GarBage>	this is a small system, hda is 12Gb (/ and swap), and hdc is 120Gb (/mnt/backup noauto)
[01:42]	<GarBage>	the windows one is a storage beast, 360Gb on it, and additional pluggable firewire drives
[01:43]	<GarBage>	and, it goes without saying, i'm always tight on free space
[01:43]	<eozl>	i stopped watching anime and my freespace woes went away :P
[01:45]	<GarBage>	eozl: as a rule of thumb, you can wipe out even episodes on anime series, and keep only the odd ones, you'll free half the space, and still be able to follow the story ;)
[01:46]	<eozl>	hehe true enough, i just stopped caring about it
[01:46]	<eozl>	though lately i started downloading american superhero cartoons like X-men, they have some coherence
[01:48]	<GarBage>	hummm... yeah, also known as "The Nazis Vs. Jews Marvel Action Series"
[01:49]	<eozl>	heh, i suppose, or the stuck-up-teenagers-with-godlike-powers-highschool-drama show
[01:49]	<GarBage>	yeah, ye olde one ;)
[01:50]	<eozl>	we joke but man, that stuff is starting to happen here.. i'm middle-eastern and find myself unable to do photography in downtown
[01:51]	<GarBage>	humm.... and that's because...
[01:51]	<GarBage>	?
[01:51]	<eozl>	cuz i'm a terrorist obviously
[01:51]	<GarBage>	err...
[01:51]	<GarBage>	are you serious?
[01:51]	<eozl>	for the NSA and FBI who are listening in: i was *joking*, sarcasm, etc., i am not a terrorist
[01:52]	<GarBage>	i know you can't take pics of official buildings
[01:52]	<eozl>	no, i am simply a middle-eastern aetheist electrical engineer
[01:52]	<GarBage>	but that's insane
[01:53]	<GarBage>	i mean, does the Patriot Act (or whatever) limit your freedom that way?
[01:54]	<GarBage>	i'm a Spanish (and living in Spain), so i don't know the full extent of it
[01:54]	<eozl>	its nothing that official, when i go set up my tripod on a busy street, people look at me funny, and i'm pretty sure if i stuck around there long enough a kind policeman would come by to ask me a few questions
[01:55]	<eozl>	patriot act just gives authoritarian powers to the police and government for all americans, that's all
[01:56]	<GarBage>	and you could still bear a weapon on your belt without being harrassed?
[01:56]	<eozl>	i'm not 21, but when i turn 21 i can buy a gun and get a legal permit to carry a concealed weapon
[01:56]	<GarBage>	i see, weapons are ok, cameras are instruments from hell
[01:57]	<eozl>	people's fear has no direction so they seize on anything, no matter how silly it is
[01:58]	<eozl>	anyone around me might be carrying a handgun, but the kid taking the pictures of a street scnene could be planning a terrorist attack
[01:58]	<eozl>	so let's stop him, and see! we are now more secure!
[02:00]	<eozl>	but it's really not nightmarish by a long-shot, i don't want to exxagerate
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[02:01]	<eozl>	it's pretty easy (for now) to stay out of trouble... i just wish i didn't have to stop photography
[02:01]	<AmericanTechpush>	greets
[02:02]	<GarBage>	eozl: i think as long as fear allows to manipulate people blindly, you'll be on a permanent state of alert, tha makes things easier for those who rule
[02:02]	<GarBage>	AmericanTechpush: hi there
[02:03]	<AmericanTechpush>	Hi Garbage
[02:04]	<eozl>	GarBage, you are preaching to the choir :P, all we can hope is that the rulers don't screw us up too badly
[02:05]	<GarBage>	eozl: according to this, my sig on the neuros forums is as follows: "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. (Ben Franklin)"
[02:05]	<eozl>	great quote from a great man
[02:07]	<eozl>	unfortunately a prerequisite of rationality is the ability to think for yourself instead of buying stuff an "expert" or a politician tells you
[02:08]	<GarBage>	"all we can hope is that the rulers don't screw us up too badly" -> you are a highly optimistic guy ;)
[02:09]	<eozl>	well, i have hope for the democratic system, nothing in the world is without its setbacks or pitfalls
[02:11]	<GarBage>	they say "Hey people, we're being threated. We'll treat you all as bad guys, and we need you to give up your privacy. After all innocent people have nothing to hide, and we can be all more secure."
[02:13]	<GarBage>	and the mass say "Hey, privacy is bad, because all those terrorist ot there could be hiding behind them, so please take mine. And sir, i'm still afraid, could you please restrict my activities a lil' more, i'd appreciatte it"
[02:14]	<GarBage>	actually, things go that way
[02:14]	<GarBage>	and the bad news is that whenever one liberty is given up, it will never come back, that's sad
[02:15]	<eozl>	never? :'(
[02:16]	<GarBage>	actually, never without a revolution, that's what history shows us
[02:16]	<eozl>	perhaps technology will help when politics has failed
[02:17]	<GarBage>	eozl: i'm glad you're being so optimistic ;)
[02:18]	<GarBage>	i've lost my faith in democracy the day the laws bowed down after money
[02:18]	<eozl>	i actually have faith in an eventual seperation between state and corporation
[02:19]	<GarBage>	who rules on office? politics
[02:19]	<GarBage>	who funds politics? corporations
[02:20]	<GarBage>	and the Supreme Court is being designed according to those politics
[02:20]	<GarBage>	so, i'm not fond it will happen eventually
[02:20]	<eozl>	but supreme court judges don't have to worry about re-election so they are uusally a lot more impartial than politicians
[02:22]	<GarBage>	yeah, in a perfect, utopic world
[02:24]	<GarBage>	but i'd hardly refuse a couple millions bucks (on lands, stocks, or whatever on Caiman, Swiss accounts) for reprobate or sign this or that resolution
[02:26]	<GarBage>	so, i'd reinstate capital punishment for corruption on high spheres
[02:27]	<eozl>	true...
[02:27]	<GarBage>	electric chair for those corrupts out there who decide the fate of millions
[02:27]	<eozl>	another vector in the whole game is, i think as a species, money is coming to be less and less a guarentee against misfortune
[02:28]	<GarBage>	as Depeche Mode once said: everything counts (in larger amounts)
[02:29]	<GarBage>	you could build your nuclear bunker, or your paradise island on top of your bills, given you have the money to do that
[02:30]	<GarBage>	but, death comes for everybody, that's true, and you can assure yourself a happy living, but money helps dude
[02:30]	<eozl>	does it?
[02:31]	<eozl>	it and everything it buys can dissapear in a flash
[02:32]	<GarBage>	yeah, but you probably had more opportunities to live a successful living before that flash, with money in your pocket
[02:34]	<GarBage>	and, in the end, death is unavoidable for all
[02:34]	<eozl>	true, which is really annoying me right now, so i've decided to do genetics in grad school to find a cure for aging
[02:34]	<GarBage>	hahaha
[02:34]	<eozl>	heh, i'm serious
[02:35]	<eozl>	that talks a little bit about it www.gen.cam.ac.uk
[02:35]	<GarBage>	i'm not sure i want to live 200 years on a bubble, achy and aged
[02:35]	<eozl>	oh silly you
[02:35]	<eozl>	i meant cure for cellular degeneration
[02:35]	<eozl>	indefinite lifespan in the condition you were when you began the treatement
[02:36]	<GarBage>	looks like sci-fi to me, but we all need hope and something to believe in
[02:37]	<GarBage>	chromosomas tend to loose their tails on every replication, and i've heard there has some improvements on keeping those tails mostly untouched
[02:37]	<eozl>	i'm a great big anti-believer in anything, but i'm confident enough (and desperate enough) to pursue this goal through college
[02:38]	<GarBage>	ok, now i have a question for you
[02:38]	<GarBage>	let's say you became a brilliant researcher in that area
[02:38]	<eozl>	for a few years. ... i want to return to robotics someday
[02:39]	<GarBage>	and you finally found that magic Ethernal Youth Fountain
[02:39]	<eozl>	heh it'll be more of a decadal treatement built around the pharmaceutical and gene therapy industries
[02:39]	<GarBage>	given you had the patent on it (and not the MegaPharm Corporation who hired you)
[02:40]	<eozl>	(or university)
[02:40]	<GarBage>	would you give up on that patent and release it to the public?
[02:40]	<eozl>	i would, yes
[02:41]	<eozl>	to hell with fears of poverty, insufficient resources, death of people when you can prevent it is murder
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[02:41]	<GarBage>	say if that makes you 2.000 million bucks poorer?
[02:41]	<eozl>	man, money will mean nothing in a world where you can live indefinitely
[02:41]	<[Chameleon]>	good point
[02:42]	<GarBage>	eozl: i love you, guy
[02:42]	<GarBage>	you're kind of an optimistic idealist ;) i love it
[02:42]	<eozl>	i won't be poorer by giving up a patent, i will just have lost the ability to make a lot of money
[02:42]	<eozl>	and i figure me putting in the time now in school and co-op will enable me to get a job easily, no matter what i go into
[02:43]	<eozl>	the funny thing is, GarBage, i think only for myself when i come up with this stuff, pure selfishness and self-preservation
[02:43]	<GarBage>	yeah, that's implicit
[02:44]	<AmericanTechpush>	Youth and idealism come hand in hand
[02:44]	<GarBage>	eozl: selfishness and self-preservation? sorry.. my english skills choke on that
[02:45]	<eozl>	well, i see people around me, highly trained people without jobs, or worse, being imprisoned in iraq or china etc.
[02:45]	<AmericanTechpush>	you have better english then most english people my freind
[02:46]	<eozl>	i don't want that to happen to me, so it is in my best interests to have the maximum number of sane, rational, and healthy people alive
[02:46]	<GarBage>	AmericanTechpush: ty, man
[02:47]	<AmericanTechpush>	Hey garabge, what the heck when the fees you had to pay when your package finnaly arrived?
[02:48]	<GarBage>	eozl: humm.. that scares me...like a new Savoir of the Pure Race?
[02:48]	<GarBage>	*Savior
[02:48]	<eozl>	heh what?
[02:49]	<eozl>	no, i don't want to live in fear or danger or hunger, so the best way to ensure that is to make sure nobody ever has to do that
[02:49]	<eozl>	if nobody lives in fear or hunger, no way i can, right?
[02:49]	<GarBage>	AmericanTechpush: i'll tell you later, if you don't mind, i'm enjoying this conversation
[02:49]	<AmericanTechpush>	sure
[02:49]	<GarBage>	eozl: you said: "to have the maximum number of sane, rational, and healthy people alive"
[02:50]	<AmericanTechpush>	define rational and sane..
[02:50]	<eozl>	rational and sane: untouched by fear or persecution
[02:50]	<GarBage>	so you had to wipe out those sick, mad, other people already, that's why i said i was scared
[02:50]	<eozl>	oh no, haha, how awful
[02:51]	<eozl>	who on earth can judge who is sick, mad, or anything?
[02:51]	<eozl>	most people would see my collection of techno, KMFDM, books on C and Latin, my pr0n collection and my Plato and decide i was a sick, mad person
[02:52]	<GarBage>	eozl: yeah, but you've already classified people on two bands on your statement
[02:53]	<eozl>	i didn't mean to classify people
[02:53]	<GarBage>	those of your interest, and those who not
[02:53]	<eozl>	a person can be rational and honest one day, hysterical and murderous the next, and back the third
[02:53]	<eozl>	that's true, there are people who share my view of the future and those taht don't
[02:54]	<GarBage>	that's what scares me
[02:54]	<eozl>	to be frank, i'm not sure if mine is very good, and i don't think anyone ever should be of their own plans, so i don't think i'd ever want to eliminate my disbelievers
[02:55]	<GarBage>	i had to admit i'm kind of a nazi bastard, and i think in a similar manner, in soo many ways
[02:55]	<eozl>	you are a nazi?
[02:55]	<eozl>	:P
[02:56]	<GarBage>	nope, i said kind of ;)
[02:56]	<GarBage>	i enjoy people who enjoys their freedom, and think by themselves... individuals
[02:56]	<eozl>	yup, individualism is a big part of my life and my future
[02:57]	<eozl>	that's why when i see american policy makers saying things like "I don't think people can deal with all the pathologies of free life without religion", i shudder and cry
[02:57]	<GarBage>	i hate people who trusts Fox News (to put it to your understanding), and is constantly under irrational fears, and easy manipuled... the mass
[02:57]	<eozl>	that's the other thing i never want to do, automatically create this label of "the masses" for people
[02:58]	<eozl>	there are a lot of people who are like what you describe, but not majority
[02:58]	<GarBage>	Religion was the opium for the masses, the was the TV, now it's the fear and terrorism
[02:58]	<eozl>	they are just the most vocal and visible, so you think they run the country
[02:58]	<GarBage>	*then
[02:58]	<eozl>	i reject the idea that there is a group of people called "the masses"
[02:59]	<GarBage>	trust me, they exist
[02:59]	<eozl>	simply by logic: if there were a group of people like that, there would be a statistical percentage that I would be one of them, and thta I find personally impossible, so i must decide that the idea does not exist
[03:00]	<eozl>	I really like this guy: www.davidbrin.com
[03:00]	<GarBage>	they are building billboards for everything, and dancing the way their politicians sing, they are masses, constantly fighting each other, and feeding the economy
[03:03]	<eozl>	no man, the one thing i learnt from David Brin really is that this arrogance towrads the 'masses' is unhealthy for you
[03:04]	<eozl>	there are a few people who are vigorously anti-individualist pro-religion and conservative, but most people don't care, and they get caught unawares by the traps laid out for them by their neighbors and politicians and companies
[03:04]	<GarBage>	i'm not an arrogant, i simply try to avoid them ;)
[03:05]	<eozl>	i know you aren't arrogant, but i'm just saying that the risk is too great, it would be too easy for us who hate 'the masses' to fall to arrogance
[03:05]	<GarBage>	on your current politics map, there are two masses, that's a fact
[03:05]	<eozl>	what are they?
[03:05]	<GarBage>	that is being exported to other countries too, which is utterly bad
[03:06]	<eozl>	black-and-white is always bad
[03:07]	<GarBage>	being not part of any of that masses appears to an individual that his/her voice won't be heard
[03:08]	<GarBage>	and the system tends to bias his/her to one of them
[03:08]	<eozl>	please clarify for me what are the masses you mean?
[03:08]	<GarBage>	you know what i mean
[03:08]	<eozl>	the conservatives and the liberals?
[03:09]	<eozl>	i've stopped using the term to denote people i don't like, so i'm really not sure which you are referring to, believe me
[03:09]	<GarBage>	nope, republicans and democrats, all of them conservatives, liberals are not taking part on the ecuation
[03:10]	<eozl>	ahh, i see
[03:10]	<eozl>	well then, i probably agree with you there
[03:12]	<GarBage>	therefore you had to agree on the concept of 'masses', even if you don't like to call them with that word
[03:13]	<eozl>	actually i was agreeing with the idea that the conservatives who are buying billboards and following orders and fighting amongst each other are useless and that tat way of doing politics is spreading to other nations
[03:13]	<eozl>	i still very much doubt that there is a large percentage of people who need to be led, guided, manipulated, which is what i thinkabout when i hear "the masses"
[03:16]	<GarBage>	ok, if you don't catch it that way, i could make a similar example with 'coranic' masses Vs. 'biblic' ones
[03:16]	<GarBage>	but that would be the same
[03:16]	<GarBage>	they exist, and they're blindly following 'instructions'
[03:17]	<eozl>	ok to make sure i understand you, when you talk about 'the masses' are you talking about people who you feel need to be guided, fed what to believe, and manipulated, or do you mean a group of people who single-mindedly will believe in only one doctrine
[03:17]	<GarBage>	i won't dig deeper on that
[03:17]	<eozl>	i mean, i think you mean the latter, but i was just clarifying my use of the term
[03:18]	<GarBage>	the latter inevitably leads to the dangerous previous one ;)
[03:19]	<eozl>	oh, it does a lot of times, but not always because, for example, in Algeria, the muslim fanatics splintered so badly and started killing each other, in a few years there were no more fanatic groups in Algeria, as they had killed each other off *completely*
[03:20]	<eozl>	a lot of people who single-mindedly follow doctrines, muslims, christians, people who believe in science, communists, etc., often differ amongst each other on how to interpret their doctrine, and sometimes these masses can splinter and die out
[03:22]	<GarBage>	which proves my theory of fighting masses, splintered from a previous one, but masses themselves, if they were dissolved into individuals (with each one with a different mind), i'd be happier
[03:22]	<GarBage>	same happened to protestants and catholics, and so on...
[03:23]	<eozl>	hmm, very true
[03:23]	<eozl>	so what is your plan on injecting individuality in these masses?
[03:23]	<GarBage>	take their opium down
[03:24]	<eozl>	oooh, if i'm an optimist, you are a danger-seeker
[03:24]	<GarBage>	and spread plurality
[03:24]	<eozl>	man they will cut you down if you try to remove their opium, they will continue to manufacture it for themselves if they have to
[03:25]	<eozl>	and really they have already been manufacturing it for some time now: the communists, the arabs, etc., were never really much of a threat
[03:26]	<GarBage>	here on spain we say "Atar a los perros con longanizas"
[03:27]	<eozl>	in english por favor
[03:27]	<GarBage>	that should be "Tie up the dogs with sausages" on english or the like
[03:27]	<eozl>	hehe
[03:28]	<eozl>	but will dogs stop being dogs when you occupy them with sausages?
[03:29]	<eozl>	my way of eliminating the masses is technology... give people neuros audio firmware to hack and they will not have time to be fanatics
[03:29]	<GarBage>	yes, as long as you feed them, they will be calmed down and on the exact place you want they to be
[03:29]	<GarBage>	eozl: that hasn't worked for me :)
[03:30]	<eozl>	doh, maybe indefinite life will
[03:30]	<GarBage>	but i'm not more than a cheap speaker ;)
[03:31]	<eozl>	eric hoffer said, "the opposite of a reigious fanatic is not a fanatic aetheist, but the gently cynic who doesn't care whether there is a god"
[03:31]	<GarBage>	maybe i should setup a blog someday, but i hate the blog masses ;)
[03:31]	<GarBage>	eozl: nice quote
[03:31]	<eozl>	i use phpwiki as a "blog" and an encyclopedia that i hope one day will hold all my kjnowledge
[03:32]	<eozl>	i don't show it to anyone, so it doesn't turn into opium
[03:33]	<GarBage>	i highly doubt it will, but everything can happen in Bushia, you know ;)
[03:34]	<GarBage>	eozl: anyway, i've enjoyed this conversation very much
[03:34]	<GarBage>	eozl: i thank you for that
[03:34]	<eozl>	me too GarBage, the only way we learn is talking to others
[03:34]	<eozl>	and I learnt a lot tonight
[03:35]	<GarBage>	me too, now i gotta go to bed (it's 3:35am here)
[03:35]	<eozl>	doh, sorry to keep you up
[03:35]	<GarBage>	have a nice one
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