Log from #neuros IRC channel

so my HD model has 64...

<Yono>

flash has 128 or 256

I see

I didnt know that

<Yono>

I see that

<Yono>

eozl, do you do metalworking too?

[02:54]

<eozl>

metalworking?

[02:54]

$30 isnt bad for a battery...

<Yono>

yea, there was a neuros desk stand made by a metalworker

<Yono>

oh I read about that

I want one...lol

<Yono>

it was pretty cool

<eozl>

wait, you are saying that the 128/256mb flash is integrated into the player ?

<Yono>

yea

<eozl>

unlike the plain Neuros II which has 64mb and a backback?

<Yono>

no

<Yono>

u guys aren't getting this

[02:56]

<eozl>

yeah, i've heard pretty much every permutation of the story

[02:56]

<Yono>

the FLASH DISK IS INSIDE THE BRAIN

[02:57]

<eozl>

so, looking at this picture of Neuros 20GB/256MB USB2.0 Bundle, you take the thing on the right, and stick it into the thing on the left ?

[02:57]

<eozl>

the left being the 20gb 2.5" drive or the battery?

<Yono>

no

let me try

The backpacks have both the battery and the HD

<Yono>

ok, you see the big pic of the gray/black neuros on the front page?

<eozl>

yeah i see it

<Yono>

ok, the gray comes out

<eozl>

(metalworking pics dead)

when you switch to the flash backpack, your using the flash inside the computer/brain, and the backpack only has a battery

<Yono>

or the black backpack

<Yono>

*of

<eozl>

right, continue

<Yono>

and put it into a bigger backpack

<eozl>

what's the little black backpack?

<Yono>

a backpack with a battery

<eozl>

there's no battery in the gray thing?

<Yono>

exactly

<eozl>

intruiging

[03:01]

<eozl>

so this thing: Neuros HD20GB USB2.0 MP3 Digital Audio Computer

[03:01]

<eozl>

has no little black backpack, only the big one ?

[03:01]

<Yono>

yep

can you take the backpacks apart?

<Yono>

yes

<eozl>

can you use the 64/128/256mb flash memory for program storage?

<Yono>

but it voids your warranty and brings lots of fun

<Yono>

eozl, no

so I could buy the cheap battery only pack to replace the battery in my HD backpack if it goes back?

<Yono>

only for cache and FW

<Yono>

SmrtJustin: that wouldn't be wise

<Yono>

I think its a diff battery

really?

<eozl>

so the only reason to get a 256mb bundle is to have 256mb of music in a small package when you go jogging?

yeah.

<eozl>

fooey

[03:04]

<eozl>

plans to get the HD only version

[03:05]

I got the HD only, cuz I didnt have enough money for a bundle

[03:05]

<eozl>

if you can't use the extra space for program space and a bloated firmware and such...

[03:06]

<eozl>

cuz really, stuff like games and such should *not* be in a device firmware

[03:06]

<Yono>

:(

[03:06]

<Yono>

u obviously haven't played neutris :)

actually, 256 Mb models have more room for cache: more cache == less disk access; less disk access == longer lasting batteries

<eozl>

i don't mean tetris shouldn't be on the neuros, but it shouldn't be a firmware thing ... there should be a seperate way to load programs

how is neuros pronounced, new-roh s?

<eozl>

ah i see

[03:08]

<Yono>

SmrtJustin: sounds just like neuroscience

[03:08]

<eozl>

SmrtJustin, :P www.bartleby.com

[03:09]

I got it

[03:11]

<Yono>

GarBage: is there anything software related that needs to be worked on?

[03:11]

<Yono>

Starkey said he had some time off and wanted to help contribute

[03:13]

<Yono>

:-P always hiding when I talk

<NhJm>

yawns a bit; sup?

...

<NhJm>

...

I cant wait to try neutris

drools

[03:15]

do the earphones that come with the neuros suck?

Yono: of course, there's a lot of work to do

<eozl>

thinks experience of playing tetris for 2 years of highschool on ti83 has jaded him

<Yono>

you should try to catch him when he's on

<Yono>

GarBage: I noticed, don't think I don't have the wiki changes as one of my RSS feeds

[03:17]

double negative...

[03:17]

Yono, the all-seeing eye!

[03:18]

<Yono>

does indeed

[03:19]

Yono: do you use bloglines, or just a software aggregator like the one bundled with FF?

[03:19]

<3 bloglines

[03:19]

<Yono>

I use Sage, an extension for firefox

<Yono>

very easy, just integrates into the sidebar

i've tried Sage, bloglines wins, hands down

installs

<Yono>

really?

[03:22]

does Sage let you have all your feeds sorted on one single page? i couldn't make it, so i've switched to bloglines

[03:22]

<Yono>

by the way, my prediction for the next NA firmware: www.rockbox.org :-D

[03:22]

<Yono>

what do you mean?

[03:23]

<Yono>

I usually view site by site, as not to mix them up

[03:23]

wake up in the morning, fire up my browser, read a single page, and i'm set with the news, no clicking, just scroll down

[03:24]

<Yono>

hmm interesting

besides, i could make the same averywhere, not only on my customized browser/computer

*everywhere

<Yono>

u use portablefirefox?

<Yono>

I know its kind of off topic, just wondering

[03:26]

i gave it a shot, but i don't use it seriously

[03:26]

that sounds cool

[03:27]

portablethunderbird is way cooler ;)

[03:28]

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[03:28]

<Yono>

I use gmail for portable email needs

[03:29]

sage puts stuff in too small of text

[03:29]

i can't live without IMAP, need to sort about 3000 emails a day

[03:30]

gmail would choke on that, and i take my privacy very seriously

good evening!

<Yono>

hi greatday

it's such a PerfectDay...

<Yono>

GarBage: is your todo list on the wiki in order of priority?

[03:33]

lol

[03:33]

Yono: nope

[03:33]

<Yono>

ok

[03:34]

<Yono>

is there anything you want done first then?

[03:34]

<Yono>

jw, because you have lot there

[03:35]

hummm... i'd like to completely rebuild the database system

[03:35]

<NhJm>

thatd be nice

[03:35]

<Yono>

like, elimination of sync apps?

[03:36]

in fact i don't mind if i break the current specs on the process

[03:37]

Yono: nope, that would be a step further

[03:37]

<Yono>

what exactly would be the first step then?

[03:37]

i've just told you

[03:38]

<Yono>

I know, but how would you go about rebuilding it?

first, i know what i want (kind of) the database to be

check the topic on the wiki

second, go code it

that's it

[03:40]

<Yono>

if you are refering to DatabaseBehaviour, you might want to get some more devs to help you on it

[03:40]

sure, i'm all for collaboration

[03:43]

<Yono>

I guess this also means FLAC isn't a high priority

[03:43]

<Yono>

o well

[03:44]

<eozl>

i'm not grasping what a database does for a mp3 player

[03:44]

it all depends on who's willing to help

[03:45]

eozl: short answer, quicker responsivity and it saves battery time

[03:46]

I'd love to have flac support

[03:52]

i'd love to have a "Please queue all the albums of the artist who's currently playing, except this one, ordered by appearance, and every album on original order, then return to the current playlist" option, that's what i want an extensible querying database

[03:52]

and so on...

[03:52]

<Yono>

wow

[03:53]

<NhJm>

:) :P

[03:53]

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[03:53]

<Yono>

don't have high expectations or anything :)

[03:54]

<eozl>

hrumph

[03:54]

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[03:54]

<eozl>

see, all that queuing and selection mechanisms work well when you have a keyboard

[03:55]

<eozl>

a mundane problem, but might turn out to be a big one

[03:56]

i have 13-14 keys, that makes a keyboard

[03:57]

by doubleclicking and holding i get about 39 combinations

[03:57]

<eozl>

yeah, you might see an exquisitely designed and well-implemented system like what you're imagining, but it won't come without a lot of iterations through a lot of other designs heh

[03:58]

far more than any other player i know of

[03:58]

<Yono>

wow, and I thought my wireless neuros idea was pushing it

<NhJm>

lol............

<eozl>

the wireless will be a lot more work i imagine, this'll just take a lot of really smart and lucky thinking

<Yono>

its not luck, its all skill

<Yono>

:-D

<eozl>

i mean, it'll need a set of minimal operators working in tandem for it to be simple and usable

[04:00]

<eozl>

and not "the developers thought you'd just want to do this so you can't do anything other than this"

[04:01]

Dang it,..I can't get thos work,..anyone have an idea why everything build fine but windows get a Image.exe problem!?!? I'm going carzy here!!1

[04:02]

<eozl>

how do other players handle that kind of activity? (queing, selecting, exclusion?)

[04:02]

GreatDay: get the latest .NET framework

[04:03]

thanks, I'll try,..but i never happened before??! oh well,...I'll gice it a try....

[04:03]

eozl: i don't know if they even tried

[04:04]

<eozl>

prolly for a good reason, no?

[04:05]

<Yono>

yes and no

[04:05]

<eozl>

apple developer #1: 'won't it be cool if i could do this and this and this on my ipod', apple developer 2: 'you bet, want to code it?', devel 1: 'not really', apple developer 3: "i will" ... 3 months later ... apple developers 1 & 2: "dude, we can't use your complicated system, how is a hip neo-artist in south side going to?"

[04:06]

Garbage: By the way, the lowering of the line attenuation below -12dB works just fine. I don't have any clean enough equipment to test for actual levels but it defenitely lowers it substentially

[04:07]

has know idea what line attenuation is

[04:07]

<Yono>

eozl: NA is also the first company to actually release their firmware that I know of

[04:07]

<eozl>

SmrtJustin, en.wikipedia.org

[04:08]

<Yono>

(and those companies that release it after they go out of buisness don't count :-P)

[04:08]

<eozl>

Yono, this i know ;)

<eozl>

I'm just thinking out loud, if it's done, it should be done well, and it ain't gonna be very easy to do it well

<eozl>

how does queuing and playlist creation work now?

<Yono>

queueing, not well

<Yono>

playlist, same actually

<Yono>

oggs always jump

<Yono>

:(

<eozl>

?!

<eozl>

please elaborate

<Yono>

no worrys eozl, its only on oggs because of the power needed to decode

[04:11]

<Yono>

bugzilla.neurosaudio.com I believe

[04:12]

<Yono>

and I think bugzilla.neurosaudio.com is part of the DB Behavior topic, am I correct GarBage?

[04:16]

<eozl>

question: "While playing all songs by an arist (eg, pushing play while highlighting Nirvana under the Arist menu)..." <-- does "Nirvana" or "Bjork" come from the id3 tag?

[04:16]

<Yono>

yes

[04:16]

<Yono>

everything comes from the id3 tag

<Yono>

which is used by the sync manager to create a DB

<eozl>

uh oh, half of my 36gb music collection is untagged...

<Yono>

which is where it directly comes from

<Yono>

bummer, is it CDs?

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<eozl>

no, mp3s and oggs that i didn't want tagged

<Yono>

ouch, Freedb can't help u then

<Rez>

why would you not want them tagged?

[04:18]

<eozl>

i had time back then to entertain silly ways of being a rebel, so i decided id3tags were gay

[04:18]

<eozl>

i guess i can put them back in, the filenames are pretty organized ..

[04:21]

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[04:23]

<eozl>

i was thinking of my preferred way of queuing/creating a concurrent playlist: while playing, start selecting individual directories or files that i want to play next. have buttons to insert a directory/song at the bottom of the list, into a specific place in the list, and next in the list, etc.

[04:23]

GarBage: Updated .NET but still the same problem,..build finished without a problem but windoes error pops up.

[04:23]

<eozl>

won't work too well if you don't organize your mp3s by artist-album.

[04:29]

sorry, back again

[04:29]

GreatDay: dunno then

eozl: i'm listening to a song

i press "Queue more..."

it asks: "More of what:"

i select "Artist"

it asks: "Queue what:"

some options again: "Albums|Same style|Same Year|Same Mood|(Whatever)"

i select: "Albums"

it asks: "What albums:"

and again, a list of options: "All albums|Earlier albums|Later albums|Queue all"

the option "Queue All" queues all albums, the other ones give a check list of matching albums, and let you choose the right ones

you press "End queueing" when done

it asks: "Ordered by:"

i select "Earlier albums"

it asks "Sorted:"

followed by: "Current|Reverse"

i say "Current"

it asks: "What to do now?"

and some options again "Play now|Save playlist|Save and play|Show info|Keep queueing..."

i say "Play now"

do i need more keys for that?

[04:32]

<eozl>

no, you need a lot of time

[04:32]

indeed

[04:32]

<NhJm>

lol.............

[04:33]

<eozl>

there's a few asumptions made if it should work like that

[04:33]

once you've setup a query, it should be saved for later use

[04:33]

*could

[04:34]

<eozl>

i'll reserve my comments till i have constructive alternatives, but another question is: should that kind of thing be in firmware?

[04:35]

<eozl>

or in an alternate program, one of potentially many queuing/playlisting programs that you may have, that you launch

[04:36]

<eozl>

(only experience i have with firmware is printers, which inevitably grow overweight and terrible, requiring 1ghz processors in the latest lasers...)

[04:36]

humm.. it's a long way until we have loadable external modules/programs on the firmware, if ever

[04:37]

but i've always loved microkernels as a good design

[04:37]

<eozl>

a microkernel in a mp3 player...?

[04:38]

<eozl>

heh, i'd love to see an operating system on one, but realistically

[04:38]

i wish linux had microkernel architecture too

[04:38]

<eozl>

how much memory does the neuros have for firmware?

[04:40]

humm.. you mean storage memory or addressable memory?

[04:41]

<eozl>

i mean, are there foreseeable size constraints in programming a firwmare? can its binary get too big?

[04:43]

could be, i haven't messed with the schematics, so dunno how much the eeprom can store

[04:45]

<eozl>

cuz if you could store random programs on the harddrive ....... %-)

[04:45]

<eozl>

i gathered from someone above that firmware+cache sit in the onboard flash (64, 128, 256mb)?

[04:55]

<GarBage_>

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[04:55]

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[04:56]

re

[19:55]

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[19:56]

what did you exactly not understand of "go to your home topic, then click on the "wiki commands" link" ?

[19:56]

good day GarBage

waves

<Yono>

so thats what it meant

<Yono>

hi GarBage

<Yono>

I got my neuros back

<eozl>

raises a suitcase to GarBage

suitcase?

GarBage: if you have a minute, can you read in the recent log what me and eozl were saying about the memory of the neuros, and correct errors if you find them ?

<eozl>

:P ordinarily it would be a glass, but I'm packing in preparation for a move

[19:59]

cheers then ;)

[19:59]

nerochiaro: humm, what?

[20:00]

<eozl>

does the firmware code live in the eeprom, and where is it loaded once you start the neuros, and how does all that tie into the 128/256meg flash storage?

[20:00]

<eozl>

s/code/binary/

[20:00]

yep, it is stored on an eeprom chip

[20:01]

then there are several memory chips, like faster dram, and faster sram

[20:01]

err.. standard dram

the flash memory is treated as a massive storage

like a disk

<eozl>

are all areas of memory in a single addressable space?