Log from #neuros IRC channel

ghavenga: nerochiaro <<...interested in hearing... implement the database>> - The first thing I would do is not make the read of the database on startup recursive.

[00:23]

<Yono>

aww, deepb, does that mean we don't get the icon-oriented menus ;)

[00:23]

<iswm>

noiz, yeah, same happened with me. Too about 10 minutes for the first one, but the others are showing up when they finish playing.

[00:23]

The second thing I'd do is set a flag somewhere that indicated that we were attempting to READ the dbi.

[00:25]

ghavenga: what the last thing would be for ?

[00:25]

If the flag was set when the database read was initiated, it would not try to read the DB again (since it failed last time), and let the Neuros come up to normal (-the db) operation, so you could at least talk to it like a std USB drive.

[00:25]

You would have to run a utility or resync to reset the flag.

[00:25]

That way, at least one could do a post mortem on the WOID files.

[00:26]

The reason for doing so is that if I use NSM, after resyncing, I get stuck in a loop of rebooting / error 0x2810 (I think... it's one of the db read errors, anyway).

[00:27]

nsm is evil, you should know that

[00:27]

There's no way to get out short of clobbering your Neuros - and since I have a v1 unit, that takes a LOOOONG time.

[00:27]

Yes, NSM is evil, but it should work.

[00:28]

Obviously, it makes a DB that blows up MY Neuros, but the DI folks aren't interested in trying to fix that, as apparently, I am experiencing a not very common problem.

[00:28]

not really. even NA seem to have quite mixed feelings about it, as you can see often in the forums

[00:28]

I actually suspect a corrupted music file, but I have no way of diagnosing that.

[00:28]

it was meant to address your "it should work" comment

[00:29]

Yes, I agree - but if they ship it, it should work.

[00:29]

DeepB: since the log bot is nowhere to be seen today, i'll repost this one: www.hydrogenaudio.org

[00:29]

And I'm a big fan of the toaster principle. If you stick bread in it, and press the handle, it should make toast.

[00:30]

Instead NSM toasts my Neuros.

[00:30]

ghavenga: it should, but presently it doesn't work. so we have to deal with it. there are 2 ways: 1) don't use it 2) work around its problems by adding failsafes in the firmware. i'm a fan of option 1) personally

[00:31]

but the toaster principle is a sound one, indeed

[00:31]

:)

[00:31]

I have tried reformatting the HDD, NAND, uninstall/reinstall NSM, etc., as directed by DI tech support, but the only thing that works for me is to copy all my music onto the device and use NDBM to rebuild the DB.

[00:32]

every time you need to rebuild the db, you have to copy ALL your music ? it seems unlikely to me

[00:32]

Since I write firmware all day, my approach is to not accept bogus input and find a way to deal with it. Any time you have an interface to another code base or another user, input validation is a MUST.

[00:32]

agree 100% with you

[00:32]

You do have to copy all of your music if you have to reformat the HDD to get out of the reboot/DB error infinite loop.

[00:33]

If you don't do input validation, you make MSIE.

[00:33]

<DeepB>

nerochiaro: BSD + pure C ?

[00:33]

<DeepB>

how come they changed the license?

[00:33]

DeepB: that's what it says in the news. they changed it to allow more freedom, and thus more widespread use, i think

[00:35]

ghavenga: but the infinite loop is tied to a bad db in the first place, so you just have not to make it, so it's just a matter to never use NSM and use NDBM. of course i agree with you that no matter what such goofy behaviour (error loop) is not acceptable

[00:36]

but still, you have plenty of workaround to solve your problem for now

[00:36]

DeepB: BSD license troubles you somehow ?

[00:37]

<DeepB>

nope, not at all, in fact it is less restrictive than LGPL

[00:37]

DeepB: yeah, it's all-permissive

[00:38]

DeepB: i'm gathering suggestions for the file browser i'm adding to the firmware. do you have any to share ? features you want to see in it ?

[00:39]

(that's also directed to anyone who wasn't here when i first asked, of course)

[00:39]

<DeepB>

proper recursion, as a starting point

[00:40]

DeepB: what do you mean by "improper" then ?

[00:41]

<DeepB>

i'll explain 'proper', everything else is 'improper'

[00:42]

ok, kinda twisted logic in my question, i guess ;)

[00:42]

<DeepB>

highlight a folder, press play on it

[00:43]

<DeepB>

all the contents in there are queued

[00:43]

<DeepB>

even those on folders inside

[00:43]

<DeepB>

the order is another history

[00:44]

i understand. the order is either alphabetical of folders, or alphabetical of all the songs inside combined

[00:45]

at least, that's the most obvious possibilities that come to my mind

[00:45]

<DeepB>

yep

[00:46]

<DeepB>

the natural order would be, content in the folder (alphabetically), content from inside folders (alphabetically)

[00:47]

<DeepB>

once there you could mess with tags and/or database to order in album-order

[00:47]

<DeepB>

or something

[00:47]

order: i agree. + i'm concerned about excessive battery use and/or disk strain in spinning up and down to read each single dir, so i was thinking about implementing some caching mechanism. does it seem a good idea to you ? or is just a waste, and all these spinups and downs does not do any real damage ?

[00:48]

caching, and maybe read-ahead

[00:49]

<DeepB>

in fact, the tree should be pregenerated/cached on-first-acces, most like the DB

[00:49]

<DeepB>

and, optionally, flushed and read again by a keycombo

[00:50]

i am having major problems with my neuros and i was wondering if anyone could help... basically, something is really funky with the HD

[00:50]

i can't play any of my music, however i can see my lists

[00:50]

if i try to play any of them, my neuros freezes

[00:50]

i thought about that, but then it might take a lot of memory to keep it all loaded (we're talking a lot of text entries) but maybe this can be solved by using the flash as memory for storing that (i'm thinking GEN_malloc() here)

[00:51]

and if i turn if off, it freezes

[00:51]

<DeepB>

that's why i want a real tree/graph based hierarchical DB

[00:51]

turn it off*

[00:51]

DeepB: that's the direction i'm willing to head to

[00:52]

just i don't (yet) have formed any clear designs for it

[00:52]

<DeepB>

elbowreturnsman: NAND format, wipe the DB and resync

[00:52]

i'll try but that didn't seem to help very much in the past

[00:53]

<DeepB>

i have the design on my mind, but i don't have the skills and/or patience to code it without an aid debugging safety net

[00:53]

elbowreturnsman: with "freezes" you mean that you can't turn it on again just by pressing PLAY ?

[00:53]

<DeepB>

plus, mine it'll break backwards db compatibility

[00:53]

no by that i mean the same thing just shows on the screen

[00:54]

<Yono>

DeepB: is it possible to code this safety net?

[00:54]

gives me the "shutting down" screen and it never goes away

[00:54]

Yono: he's talking about a debugger

[00:54]

<Yono>

oh, ok

[00:55]

elbowreturnsman: so you shut it down with UP+PLAY, correct ?

[00:55]

yeah i have to

[00:55]

elbowreturnsman: and you're using the official fw

[00:56]

hii ppl

[00:56]

<noiz>

hey

[00:56]

yes

[00:56]

DeepB: i hear you on the lack of debugger. it's really getting to my nerves too, at times. but still i manage to try some things, at least as long as my patience doesn't fail me.

[00:56]

do you think that official fw will ever include Garbage's VU meter?

[00:56]

elbowreturnsman: then really, what DeepB suggested should help you

[00:57]

ok well i'll try it out

[00:57]

<DeepB>

elbowreturnsman: does it happens on folder navigation with 2.28 ?

[00:57]

<DeepB>

try that path too

[00:58]

<DeepB>

mafian: maybe you should ask that on the official forums

[00:58]

ok

[00:58]

DeepB: about that idea i mentioned some minutes ago, to use the flash as memory to store the cached directory tree: does using that memory conflict in some way with the decoders cache ? they use the flash too for that, no ?

[00:59]

i'm using 2.25

[00:59]

another clever question: Is there any other unofficial FW except Garbage?

[00:59]

<DeepB>

afaik, no effort from NA has put into backporting GarBage's code to the official trunk

[00:59]

<Yono>

mafian: not really, most are built off of the GarBage branch

[00:59]

i have problems with Garbage newer than *.13

[01:00]

DeepB: what i meant to ask is: does the decoders assume all flash is free for them to use as cache space, or they just use what's available ?

[01:00]

*My recordings freezes

[01:01]

<DeepB>

i haven't really looked into the way the flash cache is allocated

[01:01]

i mean that is causes timed recording

[01:02]

<DeepB>

but i think it is a fixed size, depending on the overall flash size

[01:02]

DeepB: bad. if it's that way, it has potential for conflict with GEN_malloc(), i think

[01:02]

<DeepB>

mafian: record don't work properly on GarBage's latests

[01:03]

DeepB: well, i'll look into that when i will need it

[01:03]

<DeepB>

the DB is cached as well

[01:04]

DeepB: it's nice how you talk of garbage as if he's really a diffent person ;)

[01:04]

<DeepB>

yeah, i love talking in third person ;)

[01:04]

;)

[01:04]

kinda like kings and nobles used to do ;)

[01:05]

GarBage: you were saying that the db is cached as well. in the flash, you mean ?

[01:05]

yep

[01:05]

so you have a starting point

[01:05]

indeed

[01:05]

maybe i'm wrong, but i think it works that way

[01:06]

i'll check it, then

[01:07]

okay, here's the deal.... i formatted my NAND and HD, synched again, not my whole library just about 30 songs, and now when i go to the songs or artists menu, it says no records available

[01:07]

nerochiaro: nope, the f*cking mipsel thing is turning me nuts

[01:08]

and it also says that 0% of my HD is being used

[01:08]

GarBage: ok, i imagined you were swamped with $$$ work.

[01:08]

elbowreturnsman: try resetting it

[01:08]

elbowreturnsman: grab a real sync manager ;)

[01:09]

he uses NDBM

[01:09]

yeah

[01:09]

on another note - at least it shuts down now

[01:10]

reseating it didnt work

[01:11]

GarBage: last question i bounce off of you for today (be patient, it's for the greater good ;)) : when you shutdown the player with PLAY, it seems to go in some sort of sleep state, rather than actual shutdown (like when you press UP+PLAY). you know anything about that, or it's a real shutdown and i'm just mistaken.

[01:11]

?

[01:11]

NDBM and my computer itself recognizes the music. just not my neuros.

[01:12]

elbowreturnsman: really, the only other idea that comes to my mind now is to try and use the third sync manager: sorune. i know, not a great idea, but still...

[01:12]

i dont think its the sync manager

[01:13]

because everything but my neuros knows that i have music on there

[01:13]

nerochiaro: yep, the neuros never turns itself off (just stands by on the bootloader), other way the wake-up keypresses wouldn't work

[01:13]

elbowreturnsman: i see your point. mine was just a last-ditch resort kind of answer.

[01:13]

oh okay

[01:14]

elbowreturnsman: i bet it's a failed syncing, try folders with 2.28

[01:15]

ok

[01:15]

thanks for your help

[01:15]

i need to get going now though

[01:15]

bye

[01:15]

GarBage: makes sense. but does that mean that the memory (not the flash, but the actual RAM) doesn't get freed/cleaned ?

[01:16]

the flash is keeped, dunno about the dram, my guess is that is cleared, but i really dunno

[01:16]

that kind of bothers me, as while i experiment i leave lots of memory not free()'d - i rely on shutdown to clean that, but if that doesn't happen, i'm quite screwed after a while

[01:17]

but anyway, removing the brain, does actually shutdown the player. there's no power anymore when you do that, no ?

[01:18]

free() problems?

[01:18]

when you turn off, do you get an animation? or a blank screen?

[01:19]

no, free() works (i hope, at least). it's my code that doesn't call it when it should sometimes.

animation

crap, is it plugged?

yes

(well, not animation, the static icon with the plug, i mean)

[01:20]

unplug, turn off, and the memory should be free()'d

[01:20]

because i'm based upon lates CVS

[01:20]

ok. i'll try that

[01:20]

not exactly free()'d but it will work

[01:20]

also up+play flushes all

[01:21]

yes, but then i have to remove the brain to make it start up once again

[01:21]

after up+play 70% of the times my neuros won't turn on with PLAY anymor

[01:22]

ahh.. bug #305

[01:22]

it's a nice one

[01:22]

solutions to this involve: 1) re-seating the brain and 2) unlugigng and re-plugging the power cord (third plugging of the power cord usually makes it turn on again). didn't know was an official bug.

[01:23]

bugzilla.neurosaudio.com

[01:23]

yeah, i submitted it a while ago

[01:23]

seen it

[01:23]

annoys to hell when developing

[01:25]

man, it does. combined with the fact that removing the brain usually breaks one of my nails or risks cracking the LCD, i prefer to try the power-cord replugging route. usually first two times won't startup, but third time works almost always. very time wasting, thogh.

[01:26]

indeed

[01:26]

just i hope the connector inside is solid, because i always fear it will break after all that extra work.

[01:27]

and, completely offtopic, you'll definitelly want to watch "The Sea Inside"

[01:27]

an EXCELLENT spanish movie

[01:27]

i liked it a lot

[01:27]

and (honestly) cried, as well

[01:29]

it's on my list, i heard good things of it. for me, next movie to watch is "House of Flying Daggers", though. i need some chinese martial arts movie once in a while.

[01:29]

this one seems nice, at least from the trailer.

[01:29]

everybody's muay thai fighting...

[01:29]

or something

[01:30]

dunno the style, looked like some cool action though

[01:33]

well, thanks for all the tips, gar. i think it's time for me to wrap up that function i am writing and then go to bed. bye

[01:33]

and by to everyone else

[01:33]

function?

[01:33]

one of the functions in the file browser's code

[01:34]

<Yono>

later nero

[01:34]

damn, the bot is late of just a couple minutes ;)

[01:34]

is the code for the browser out? or are you doing it from scratch?

[01:34]

shit what did I miss?

[01:35]

GarBage: from scratch

[01:35]

GarBage: for two reason: 1) academic interest 2) to hopefully make it better

[01:35]

nerochiaro: oh, great.. can't wait to see it, man

[01:35]

gernika: i'm forwarding you a log

[01:36]

ah ok.

[01:36]

GarBage: i'll be putting out some builds in the following days

[01:36]

GarBage: i appreciate the interest :)

[01:37]

excellent, keep me posted

[01:37]

you had access to the CVS don't you?

[01:37]

*have

[01:38]

yeah, buy haven't really used it even once. as soon as i have something postable, i'll learn how to use developer CVS access

[01:38]

great, start a spin-off brach if you want

[01:39]

GarBage: it will maybe be simpler that way, yes. but in the end, i'd like to merge it back into your branch. too many branches are a mess. (unrelated: where does irssi keeps by default its logs ?)

[01:40]

gernika: sorry, i'm still trying to find out that damn log

[01:40]

which address were you forwarding it to, btw?

[01:41]

i was going to ask you, because i really forgot the one you gave me last time

[01:41]

nerochiaro: ~/.irclogs/

[01:41]

;)

[01:41]

<Yono>

hmm, its interesting, nerochiaro entered right after the bot left

[01:41]

GarBage: damn, i don't have it. logging is off by default, i guess :(

[01:41]

My bot has been a bad bad bot today.

[01:42]

nerochiaro: ok, then code directly to my branch if you want, just tell me about your commits before if you can

[01:44]

GarBage: i'll try to make the less possible mess. you'll probably hear from me before i do commit my changes the fist time, though.

[02:03]

Hi, everyone. Can someone help me with installing new firmware? I can't seem to get it to work on my Neuros.

[02:04]

<noiz>

i'll help

[02:04]

<noiz>

what is going wrong?

[02:05]

noiz: I plug in the cable, and hit the down and play buttons, but the most I get is a message that says to plug in the cable (which is already plugged in). Most of the time, the unit turns on, but doesn't go to the firmware install menu.

[02:06]

I've done it before, but I can't remember how, and the new firmware doesn't seem to have the release notes/instructions with it.

[02:06]

<noiz>

are you using usb2 port?

[02:06]

noiz: Yeah.

[02:06]

<noiz>

then you have to turn it on and plug it in like you are going to put songs on it

[02:07]

<noiz>

but go to it in explorer and make a folder called firmware and put the woid.hex file in there

[02:07]

Okay. brb.

[02:08]

<noiz>

then use down play to turn it off, and once its turned off, use down+play to turn it back on and it should say "do you want to install new firmware"

[02:08]

<noiz>

and that should work

[02:09]

Okay. I transfered it. I'm gonna do down/play now.

[02:09]

<noiz>

k

[02:11]

It looks like that doesn't work. My neuros is frozen. I've gotta do up-play to get it to turn off.

[02:11]

<noiz>

wait

[02:11]

<noiz>

it does take a bit

[02:11]

<noiz>

to shut down

[02:12]

<noiz>

but it should shut down in under a minute

[02:12]

I'm back at a screen that says "Please plug in USB cable and download software"

[02:13]

<noiz>

ok, lets start over

[02:13]

<noiz>

turn the neuros off

[02:13]

ok.

[02:13]

<noiz>

now turn it on normally

[02:13]

ok.

[02:13]

<noiz>

now plug in the usb2 cable

[02:14]

I get a message that says "usb device not recognized" from XP...

[02:14]

<noiz>

it had been recognized before, right?

[02:14]

Wait, i'ts on now.

[02:14]

<noiz>

ok

[02:15]

Yeah. I think it was just a loose connection.

[02:15]

<noiz>

so you can see the drive through my computer?

[02:15]

Yeah.

[02:15]

<noiz>

go into the drive and create a folder named firmware

[02:16]

Okay. It's already there.

[02:16]

<noiz>

ok, delete that whole folder

[02:16]

<noiz>

and make a new one named "Firmware"

[02:17]

ok.

[02:17]

<noiz>

now, is the firmware file named "woid.hex"?

[02:17]

<Yono>

yep

[02:17]

<Yono>

oh, that wasn't a general question, sorry

[02:18]

<noiz>

i was wondering what you were doing

[02:18]

Oh, okay.

[02:19]

<noiz>

so the file is named correctly, right?

[02:19]

Yeah. And the "firmware" directory is copied over.

[02:19]

<noiz>

ok, now safely remove the device

[02:19]

<noiz>

from xp

[02:20]

<noiz>

and once its safe remove the usb2 vord

[02:20]

<noiz>

cord

[02:20]

ok. Well, it;s removed, but not safely, I guess. My cord is flaky, and I think it just disconnected itself.

[02:20]

<noiz>

ok, but its still on, right?

[02:21]

Yeah.

[02:21]

<noiz>

ok, now hold down+play until the neuros shuts off

[02:23]

No response.

[02:23]

<noiz>

so is it frozen on the neuros shutting down screen?

[02:24]

It never got that far. I'm on the menu screen.

[02:24]

<noiz>

but its frozen

[02:24]

<noiz>

?

[02:24]

yeah.

[02:24]

<noiz>

and youre sure the lock switch isnt on?

[02:25]

yeah.

[02:25]

<noiz>

ok, use up+play to shut it down

[02:25]

okay.

[02:25]

<noiz>

now press 1+5+play to boot it up

[02:26]

<noiz>

and go to the nand drive option

[02:26]

<noiz>

and choose to reformat nand

[02:26]

<noiz>

(this wont delete your music)

[02:27]

ok

[02:27]

<noiz>

now go to the parent menu and choose exit

[02:27]

<noiz>

and your neuros should boot up (may take a little time)

[02:27]

ok

[02:28]

<noiz>

so has it fully booted up?

[02:29]

It's up now. It didn't shut off after the format.

[02:29]

<noiz>

thats normal

[02:29]

<noiz>

now plug in the usb2 cable

[02:30]

ok

[02:30]

<noiz>

go to the neuros through explorer and delete the firmware folder that is already there and make a new firmware folder and put the woid.hex file in it

[02:31]

ok. done.

[02:32]

<noiz>

now safely remove the hardware, and then unplug the cord

[02:33]

Okay.

[02:33]

<noiz>

now is it just sitting on the main menu screen?

[02:33]

yeah.

[02:34]

<noiz>

hold down down+play until it shuts off

[02:35]

I wonder if that worked...

[02:36]

Didn't work. When I hit down-play, the menu just keeps scrolling down until I release the down button....

[02:37]

Okay. It worked. It was a timing issue, I think> :)

[02:37]

Bummer.

[02:37]

Ok, not so bummer.

[02:37]

Now down-play to boot?

[02:37]

yup

[02:38]

Okay. :) Looks like that did it.

[02:39]

Thanks for all the help, noiz! :)

[02:39]

<noiz>

yeah, its been a while

[02:40]

<noiz>

are you sure you are pressing the buttons firmly

[02:40]

<noiz>

k

[02:40]

<noiz>

now is it shut down?

[02:40]

<noiz>

yeah

[02:40]

Yeah. :)

[02:40]

<noiz>

np

[02:40]

<noiz>

reformatting the nand solves most problems ;)

[02:41]

kewl - I'm glad you're up and running.

[02:41]

Thanks, noiz. :)

[02:41]

thanks, ghavenga. :)

[02:41]

I just watched, so thank all the other guys.

[02:42]

it's been a while since I updated FW, so I wasn't going to be much help.

[02:42]

Anyhow, stick a fork in me, I'm done. Time to go home.

[02:42]

bye ghavenga. :)

[02:42]

<noiz>

later

[02:42]

<Yono>

noiz, stick around

[02:43]

<noiz>

k

[02:43]

<Yono>

GarBage, wake up if you want to

[02:43]

Actually, I was just curious about the new firmware. Neutris is pretty cool. :)

[02:43]

<noiz>

it is

[02:43]

<noiz>

do you have 2.28 yet?

[02:44]

That's what I just put on here. :)

[02:44]

<noiz>

cool

[02:44]

Yono: sup?

[02:44]

<noiz>

how long have you had your neuros?

[02:44]

<Yono>

anyway, like I was saying joe, a hacker reward program

[02:45]

<Yono>

you see it all the time, old outdated products live on because of their developer possibilites

[02:45]

I've had it for about 2 years, I think. Nov. 2003 is when I bought it.

[02:45]

<Yono>

Dreamcast is a prime example

[02:45]

right, well first, you asked about what I wanted,

[02:45]

It's my spare now, actually. I've also got a Rio Karma.

[02:45]

<noiz>

BrainHH: wow, thats longer then ive had mine

[02:45]

<Yono>

yes, you should repeat that here definitely

[02:45]

actually now that you've asked it, I feel like bad that I didn't answer it previously

[02:46]