Log from #neuros IRC channel

JoeBorn: so what's wrong with that? even bigger battery hog? :

)

by the end of the year, we could possibly have a recorder based on that

not at $129, but full D1 encoding, ethernet, etc.

well, the 320 will largely replace the 270, but yes is a little worse on power

JoeBorn: What causes the resolution limit on the current recorder?

JoeBorn: that would be quite spiffy. and then once batteries were out that were powerful enough to give a DM320-based player some decent run time, you would already have some work done on it that had been put into the recorder

JoeBorn: is it being out of CPU for encoding, or is that just all the pixels the hardware has?

and truth be known for a portable you don't want full linux anyway, look how long it a PC to boot

yes

JoeBorn: i'd take it ;)

and you don't want 256MB SDRAM in a handheld, you're going to wind up with a notebook computer

JoeBorn: linux is quick to boot... kernel can come up in several seconds

JoeBorn: just the kernel itself compiled for just that hw would probably boot pretty quick.. but if it took 5 minutes, i would accept that and just never turn it off ;)

well, right if you customize it

* solomon imagines having uptime-daemon running on his neuros showing a 1-year uptime.. hehe

right, no I'm with you the DM320 is very cool, but you get the idea.

uclinux is probably what you want though

then you would get a preemptive kernel, thread prioritization...

good things

derobert: out of CPU

JoeBorn: i am curious about this development team

JoeBorn: if you look at a linux system booting, the time from 'Loading Linux...' to 'VFS: Mounted root... Freeuing unused' is the kernel boot time

JoeBorn: you said they are being set up in china. they are outsourced? do you have complete control over them? how many people?

JoeBorn: cool... so does that mean it could possibly play back at a higher resolution?

no, not outsourced, this would be an inhouse team.

JoeBorn: inhouse in china?

c

JoeBorn: when i think inhouse i think chicago :P

we will use a combination of resources in the meantime

well, yes and no. For those of you who followed us, our head firmware guy is a guy named michael gao

what exactly is the name of the Ti chip on current neuros ?

C54??

he did do firmware here in the US, but we established a team in Shanghai, our employees, our office, etc.

JoeBorn: for cheaper manufacturing?

Lefungus: www.sorune.com

derobert: tahnks

JoeBorn: so now you are giving gao some support?

solomon: no they didn't do any manufacturing, just software

solomon: yes

JoeBorn: ah. so how many people?

starting with 6 engineers, that's what we had in Shanghai

and are they all set on fw or are they going to be working on other things like nsm or a media player or something

had?

6 full time folks is a lot, they were cranking out a lot of work

[00:49]

so that doesn't reflect the current situation?

[00:49]

solomon: no, closed that division some time ago and are re-opening one in the south of china

[00:49]

nearer to most of the manufacturing

ahh

is gao staying on?

yes

Gao is chinese, so he's quite comfortable living in China

[00:50]

hehe, sensible

[00:50]

when will they be set up?

well, we'll likely be doing some PC software development there as well.

and have you thought of a timetable for getting them working together with outside developers?

e.g. "us"? :)

plan is by the end of March, we're working o nit.

oh, they'll be working with outside developers from day one, pretty much.

bye all

that's very good to hear

keeping development in public CVS, or subversion or whatever.

also very good to hear :)

i hope to see them in here a lot, too :)

all bugs will be in bugzilla. we'll try to keep everything on one tree.

no, definately, that will be part of the job.

[00:53]

as discussed on the forums, the liason function, etc.

[00:53]

very cool

[00:53]

with that and eventually GCC i'll bet things will be hopping by the time the n3 is out

[00:54]

then if all goes well more slashdotters and such will get wind of the n3 and there will be even more interest in development

what about hardware tools?

Still studying Chinese, JoeBorn?

hardware tools?

even with GCC, if there are no HW emulators, you can't do real time debugging on the device

ah yes

gernika: shi ah (yes)

that would be the next thing :)

hao :)

but right now people can't even change a string in the fw and recompile for themselves unless they buy windows

well, there are two ways to go with this: a) investment is made to develop a software emulator/simulator

that doesn't cut it for many

or b) investment is made to build an inexpensive JTAG emulator for the device

JoeBorn: personally, I'd far prefer software

solomon: right, I know.

derobert: why?

i have no idea what jtag is, but without knowing anything about it, i'd bet software would be the best ;)

JoeBorn: Much easier to deal with in general than hardware...

interesting.

JoeBorn: I can take software with me easily anywhere, for example on a laptop. Can't do that with a JTAG interface

<Yono>

solomon: its the debugger built into the TI chip

if jtag is something that anybody and their brother can't easily get ahold of, then it probably isn't the best thing if the goal is to get every linux programmer and their brother interested in coding :)

JoeBorn: and software is always cheaper :-)

Yono: ah

with jtag then you would have to have a neuros

<Yono>

yeah

well, the jtag emulator, could actually be a cheap accessory for the neuros or actually built in to the neuros itself

although i can't see a lot of people trying to code for the neuros without owning one, i think it would best to provide for the possibility of doing so, or coding without having it around :)

but realistically, you're going to have to have a neuros to develop for it at some point

well, either way, you get the idea.

hehe yeah

<Yono>

at this point, the code isn't very easy to add to unless you are really good at that kind of thing

<Yono>

like DeepB and nerochiaro luckily are

Plus, with a software emulator, you can try really crazy things without worrying about bricking the neuros. Like replacing the bootloader :-)

say, something that I think would help Neuros would be if someone could just summarize these discussions and I can link to the summaries on OdNA

(no idea why you'd want to, but you could)

I will be making a dialogue out of this conversation....

Neuros Traffick :)

<Yono>

there is that ablility on our log site

<Yono>

Joe: it would also help if you talked about these disscussions on OdNA

just a summary would be great. Personally, I'd love to get an overview of what's going on, but I don't have time to scan through pages of IRC chat.

<Yono>

it would make it much more like a blog and tell your opinions on the subject

JoeBorn: how come every time you talk about the recorder, I get more and more impatient for Woot to ship me mine? Aren't I supposed to be getting buyers remorse or something instead?

derobert: thank you, you are very kind.

JoeBorn: right. That's the cool thing about dialogues, you can edit out the boring stuff.

JoeBorn: especially if its just out of CPU to do higher res, I bet it could play back higher res fine...

if someone could summarize, then I could link to it and it could be a more constant, informal source of news.

it takes me hours to write one of the blogs on OdNA

<Yono>

really?

JoeBorn: perhaps you should give some others here the ability to post to it themselves?

they aren't really blogs, but more like announcements.

solomon: I'd be happy to.

<Yono>

true, they are still interesting

if they were more like blogs that would probably help :)

and if they were as frequent as blogs :)

just dash something out, that's a possibility.

JoeBorn: ever read the cathedral and the bazaar by ESR?

well, I can do that.

solomon: no, what is it?

if someone will summarize, send me the links, etc.

JoeBorn: it's an essay about the opensource model, how it works, what makes it work well, etc.

<Yono>

I mean, talking about our disscussions and posting them there would make others not on the log know what's going on on with the development

[01:06]

JoeBorn: you should take a look at it -- it is very much written for people that have not been in it from the beginning

[01:07]

JoeBorn: one of the things mentioned is that the faster the software release cycle is, the more involved people get, because they get to see their changes and others' in the product right away, and find and fix showstopper bugs right away. which is a good thing to know, but I bring that up because the same principle applies to news :)

[01:07]

JoeBorn: when opensource people that are used to the fast release cycle go to OdNA and see one announcement every month, they are put off because they are used to getting in on all the ups and downs and getting excited about it and involved

[01:08]

well, I do believe I am a bottleneck in this process, and it's important to get some other voices involved to speed that.

[01:08]

<Yono>

woah, derobert, solomon, were you here when DeepB and I were talking about that company that ported uclinux?

[01:08]

so either someone else summarizing or posting or somethign would help

Yono: I might of been...

JoeBorn: hehe yeah, you are a bottleneck probably because your job is to be president of the company and not to write blogs and speed up release cycles ;)

Yono: was that when the last resume was sent to Joe?

<Yono>

I found a site from the company: www.dsplinux.net

<Yono>

yeah

Yono: i wasn't here

<Yono>

it has a BSP of the DSC25!

<Yono>

for unclinux

<Yono>

*uclinux

bsp?

[01:10]

<Yono>

google is now officially my new best friend, sorry amazon

[01:11]

<Yono>

JoeBorn: I think that if you talk to this company, you'll have ported uclinux in a week :)

[01:11]

hrmm this is interesting

[01:12]

JoeBorn: i would be willing to post to OdNA when i have time and inclination. I'll bet yono and deepb and nerochario would too, to name a few. perhaps you should email the neuros-firmware list recruiting bloggers :)

[01:13]

<Yono>

Joe: you could always just post to the Joe Born blog, its way more informal, less pressure

[01:13]

<Yono>

of course, u can't hide anything from all-seeing google

[01:14]

<Yono>

solomon: BSP is board support package

[01:14]

<Yono>

it includes the Tools, drivers, Linux kernel, and documentation necessary to support development on a particular board.

[01:14]

<Yono>

*on

[01:15]

what Joe Born Blog?

[01:15]

JoeBorn: have a look at www.mozillazine.org news.gnome.org

[01:16]

JoeBorn: I think the "Joe Born Blog" is a hypothetical blog if you decided to start one

[01:16]

JoeBorn: those are the sort of "developer" news formats that other oss projects use

<Yono>

<Yono>

<Yono>

nothing hides from google

[01:17]

JoeBorn: the announcement format on OdNA is more like the sort of format companies put on their front page that the general public looks at

<Yono>

solomon: yeah, thats exactly what I meant

Yono: oh how funny!

<Yono>

the collin you refer to is collin anderson, right?

<Yono>

I think I read an article that mentioned him somewhere

yes, that's him, he's writing a book on starting DI.

<Yono>

cool

solomon: yes, you made me realize that.

JoeBorn: some of the announcements to OdNA might be useful on the front page of na.com :)

so, basically put my announcements on the home page and blogs on OdNA, or something like that.

<Yono>

solomon: the "new and improved" front page :)

JoeBorn: basically

JoeBorn: and give involved developers access to post blogs

<Yono>

and make neuro's world less formal and more about the consumers

seems like a good idea.

JoeBorn: basically a bin for everyone to throw development news into

yono: we're working on that.

<Yono>

oh yeah, and remember that "to-do" list you had for the neuros?

JoeBorn: your presence here lately is evidence you're working on it :)

<Yono>

here it is: www.neurosaudio.com

Yono: that page is hillarious

ouch, don't even mention that!

not bad, they have done a lot of that :)

<Yono>

update that and make one for the recorder, it used to be quite helpful to tell people you were working on things

i don't ever want to hear "your music frequency" again though ;)

www.mozilla.org

neuros needs a roadmap :)

<Yono>

JoeBorn: its not that bad, everything has been completed on GarBage's firmware, and most everything on the official firmware

that is a very long roadmap there

it's nice to read though, it gives some insight into the development process mozilla uses

i am always harping on mozilla :)

[01:24]

a roadmap would be more something for gao and/or mr. unnamed liaison guy to create

[01:24]

<Yono>

and how about adding hardware mods and firmware development boards into the forum?

[01:24]

* derobert needs to fully switch to Firefox now the Seamonkey is EOL :-(

[01:25]

<Yono>

derobert: when you do let me know

[01:25]

though a format a bit like that would help for the neuros in general, i.e. to help people understand what the priorities are for NA, what the obstacles are, and what they have in line to accomplish them

[01:25]

<Yono>

I'll hook you up with some cool extensions

Yono: I'm using both now, so go ahead and hook me up

Yono: I've found the cookie toolbar button one, which was my big blocker to dump SeaMonkey

Yono: we have development forums, they are called irc and mailing lists and wiki's ;P

the forums need to be cleaned up, we have a new webmaster

<ivel>

heya joe

howdy

<ivel>

congrats on the Woot sellout

<Yono>

Joe Born: thats great

<Yono>

solomon: something more organized, you know what I mean :-P

Yono: i hate the na forums :)

<Yono>

JoeBorn: consider what I said earlier about the sonos dev forum thing

why do i have to get an email telling me to go look at the forums, then click on a link and click reply and type my message in a web browser

<Yono>

hidden from those that don't want to, and first priority for the company

lemme just get the mail with the message and hit reply and answer it... a mailing list :P

sonos?

solomon: better yet, NNTP 4ever!

derobert: lol

no, really, I'm fed up enough with phpBB that when I get enough time I need to get together a phpBB <-> NNTP gateway for a-m-v.org :-)

well, I'll send out a message on the dev list to recruit posters for OdNA

<Yono>

great

and in the meantime if anyone wants to summarize these talks, that would be great.

<Yono>

and thanks again for coming out to the channel and talking

i would volunteer to write a first post to OdNA right now

<Yono>

I'm sure the musepack guys appreciate it too

if it weren't for the fact that i should have gone to sleep a few hours ago

hehe

Yono: musepack guys?

<Yono>

yeah, I'll agree post to OdNA

<Yono>

yeah, I had joe talk to them about helping them aquire hardware

[01:31]

Yono: so there are "musepack people" now who might aquire hardware... you mean musepack people who are going to develop mpc support??

[01:31]

if so i will play rejoicingly on my guitar

[01:32]

<Yono>

develop and test, yes

[01:32]

* solomon just played a nice loud G

<Yono>

solomon: u know you want to develop a tuner into the neuros ;)

<Yono>

hi ansieed

hi guys

i jsut got my first neuros

<Yono>

congrats

but having a few probs

can i ask u guys bout it ? or do i get kicked off ?

<Yono>

no, u can ask

<Yono>

but u might want to check the forums first

ok.. its a usb 1.1 ( 20 gig )

i did check the forums

<Yono>

ok, go ahead

been on the forums for 3 hours

im trying to upgrat my firmware

its 1.27 .( old i know

but i press down and play..

<Yono>

ok..

nuthin happens except it just boots up normally and goes to the main menu

<Yono>

is the power in?

<Yono>

oohhh

tried it both ways

<Yono>

u have to HOLD down and HOLD play

power in.. and out

<Yono>

and keep the power cord out until they tell you to put it in

yeh i held down and play togeather

<Yono>

really?

yeh

<Yono>

hmm

first i though

id just hold the down and then PLAY . and that wud kick it up

<Yono>

hold down

but it didnt wory

work

<Yono>

and hold play