[00:01]	<lennym>	how is the FLAC support coming anyway?
[00:02]	<noiz77>	lennym: only Starkey really knows right now, but i think he has at least started working on it :)
[00:03]	<nerochiaro>	he said something to that effect yesterday night. check the logs, i'm too lazy to quote
[00:03]	<nerochiaro>	;)
[00:04]	<lennym>	even if it is included i think the battery drain will be really high since it will have to spin up the HD much more often. has anyone brought this up?
[00:05]	<noiz77>	it may, but i guess we will see about that, although it probably will decrease the battery life by a bit
[00:05]	<DeepB>	a lot
[00:05]	<nerochiaro>	that's alomst sure it will, hard disk spinning is costly
[00:06]	<DeepB>	unless we're talking about FLAC encoding
[00:07]	<nerochiaro>	lennym: but still, flac has its uses, esecially if you don't use battery but have the chance to plug in to main power, like in the car
[00:08]	<nerochiaro>	of course in the car FLAC is overkill beause FM transmission usually damages audio quality too much
[00:08]	<lennym>	yes, i agree it has uses
[00:11]	<nerochiaro>	how long will it take for the neuros to be destroyed if plugged in at reversed polarity ?
[00:12]	<noiz77>	but the flash pack wont be affected by that, so you can play your 1-3 flac songs that you can fit on the flash player for a while :)
[00:14]	<nerochiaro>	oh well, guess i'll find out soon enough...
[00:15]	<noiz77>	sounds like someone liked the fumes given off by burnt plastic... :)
[00:17]	<nerochiaro>	i'm starting to enjoy it, you know. you should try, too ;)
[00:18]	<noiz77>	i dunno, i prefer the smell of glue :-)
[00:25]	<nerochiaro>	seems like i got the polarity right. no smoke so far. good. - i borrowed an adapter from my parent's, but it has replaceable plugs, and the instructions were as foggy as possible to the way you should connect them in order to provide one polarity or the other.
[00:25]	<nerochiaro>	but it should get me going until i buy a new one tomorrow
[00:26]	<nerochiaro>	if it doesn't go up in a burst of flames while i'm sleeping
[00:48]	<nerochiaro>	DeepB: you still around '
[00:48]	<nerochiaro>	?
[01:12]	<DeepB>	nerochiaro: yes?
[01:12]	<nerochiaro>	DeepB: in your opinion, writing to the NAND is a slow operation ?
[01:13]	<nerochiaro>	from the player, not via USB
[01:13]	<DeepB>	in comparison to what?
[01:13]	<nerochiaro>	to writing to the hard disk, for example
[01:13]	<nerochiaro>	or to reading from the NAND itself
[01:14]	<DeepB>	yes, it is slower, imho
[01:15]	<nerochiaro>	i am creating a dozen files on the NAND (empty files) and directories, and it takes up more than 10 seconds. i didn't expect it to be that slow. it's quite a letdown, especially considering that reading from it is lightning fast
[01:16]	<nerochiaro>	i wanted to use the NAND as cache for the filebrowser, but if things are so bad, i will have to find another way
[01:16]	<nerochiaro>	:(
[01:58]	<SmrtJustin>	hello all
[02:04]	<sorune>	hi
[02:06]	<lennym>	hi
[05:01]	<Starkey>	Good to hear things are working for you Chawn420
[05:54]	<Chawn420>	Starkey: Thanks. I'm going to try to compile the latest source later on tonight...
[05:55]	<Chawn420>	Wish me luck...I'm a novice at this sort of thing.
[06:09]	<Chawn420>	Anyone awake? On the wiki 'How to Compile' page, underSW requirements, it lists:
[06:09]	<Chawn420>	"A CSV client" and
[06:10]	<Chawn420>	"A 'make' compatible program"
[06:11]	<Chawn420>	I'm using Win2k. I only need the CVS client, correct? A 'make' program is referring to a Linux "function"...correct?
[06:11]	<Koron>	you need to get cygwin and set it up
[06:11]	<Koron>	all of these instructions are for windows
[06:12]	<Koron>	because there is no way to compile the firmware in anything else
[06:12]	<Chawn420>	Ok...thanks. I'm going to add "and" on the webpage for amateurs looking to make their own bricks. ;-)
[06:14]	<Koron>	read on a couple of paragraphs, it mentions cygwin
[06:15]	<Chawn420>	yeah, I was confused because I thought a bunch of people on here are using Linux...
[06:16]	<Chawn420>	....but they must have windows installs as well.
[06:16]	<Koron>	bingo
[06:26]	<Chawn420>	Koron: what does cygwin do? I've been reading but I'm not picking it up...
[06:28]	<Koron>	From the FAQ:
[06:28]	<Koron>	The Cygwin tools are ports of the popular GNU development tools for Microsoft Windows. They run thanks to the Cygwin library which provides the UNIX system calls and environment these programs expect.
[06:28]	<Koron>	With these tools installed, it is possible to write Win32 console or GUI applications that make use of the standard Microsoft Win32 API and/or the Cygwin API. As a result, it is possible to easily port many significant Unix programs without the need for extensive changes to the source code. This includes configuring and building most of the available GNU software (including the packages included with the Cygwin development tools themselves). Even if the
[06:29]	<Koron>	basically, a lot of programs you might run in linux can be run under cygwin with little change
[06:55]	<pwarren_afk>	can someone kick the other me?
[07:08]	<Chawn420>	how do I do that?
[07:14]	<pwarren_>	erm, have to be a chanop, but i just noticed there are no ops around :o_
[07:21]	<unknown_lamer>	pwarren_: kill it with nickserv?
[07:24]	<pwarren_>	is that possible?
[07:27]	<unknown_lamer>	If you are registered with nickserv, use the GHOST command
[07:27]	<unknown_lamer>	And if you aren't, you should be :)
[07:27]	<pwarren_>	Oh, I am. Just haven't used IRC much since the good old days :o)
[07:28]	<pwarren>	?
[07:28]	* pwarren  retreats into a hole
[07:29]	<unknown_lamer>	huhg, wtf just happened?
[07:29]	<pwarren>	had forgotten about the connection on my desktop :o)
[07:29]	<unknown_lamer>	hehe
[07:31]	<pwarren>	everyone having fun?
[13:41]	<mb>	AmericanTechpusher, are you around?
[20:48]	* badalex  is away: lunch
[21:39]	* badalex  is back (gone 00:51:27)
[21:59]	<nerochiaro>	JoshMalone: are you around ?
[21:59]	<JoshMalone>	sure am
[22:01]	<nerochiaro>	heh, i am in need of your knowledge once again
[22:01]	<JoshMalone>	shoot
[22:01]	<nerochiaro>	yesterday i tried running some experiment on the neuros, regarding writing to the NAND memory, and found that surprisingly slow
[22:02]	<nerochiaro>	is that to be expected, or should i suspect i'm doing something wrong
[22:02]	<JoshMalone>	my theory (and it's just that, since I haven't looked @ spacs on the chip):
[22:02]	<nerochiaro>	i mean, writing from code, not from the PC using the USB link
[22:02]	<JoshMalone>	the NAND on the N is pretty slow
[22:03]	<JoshMalone>	I've timed some instances when the HD spins up to pull data into NAND cache
[22:03]	<JoshMalone>	and it seems to take longer than usual flash writes (IMO)
[22:03]	<nerochiaro>	mmh, that's very sad
[22:03]	<JoshMalone>	certainly longer than NOR flash we use on our boards
[22:04]	<nerochiaro>	and instead, the reading speed is nearly instantaneous, right ?
[22:04]	<JoshMalone>	yeah - reading form flash is ALWAYS faster
[22:04]	<JoshMalone>	writing is a complicated procedure when a filesystem is involved:
[22:05]	<nerochiaro>	updating the FAT and all that, i guess
[22:05]	<nerochiaro>	i can see how that would slow down things
[22:05]	<JoshMalone>	1) determine which block you need to write to (NAND must be written in whole block chunks of about 1k, I think...
[22:05]	<nerochiaro>	256words, on the neuros
[22:05]	<JoshMalone>	2) read that block into RAM
[22:05]	<JoshMalone>	3) erase that block
[22:05]	<JoshMalone>	4) re-write the block with new data
[22:06]	<JoshMalone>	and this must be done for the data block (inode) and the FAT
[22:06]	<JoshMalone>	so, 512 bytes, then
[22:06]	<JoshMalone>	(assuming 16-bit chip words)
[22:07]	<JoshMalone>	and erasing flash is VERY slow
[22:07]	<nerochiaro>	let me see, then theoretically writing one file with much data in it is faster than creating many small files ?
[22:08]	<JoshMalone>	well, 1 larger file could be multiple NAND blocks
[22:09]	<nerochiaro>	yes, but creating many files means more accesses to modify FAT table i think
[22:09]	<nerochiaro>	or not ?
[22:09]	<JoshMalone>	true
[22:09]	<JoshMalone>	I forgot about that
[22:10]	<JoshMalone>	but modifying a file could result in FAT update, as well, if size or placement changes
[22:10]	<SmrtJustin>	hmm just got a 0x0801
[22:11]	<JoshMalone>	also, it's worth noting that some ATA-CF cards "pre-erase" blocks for you to make writes faster; they also implement wear-leveling
[22:11]	<nerochiaro>	to put things in perpective, i am asking this because in making the filebrowser i wanted to cache the entries read from HDD into NAND, so that subsequent accesses to the same dir won't spinup again the HDD.
[22:11]	<JoshMalone>	I'm not sure how N handles flash wear-leveling (if at all)
[22:11]	<nerochiaro>	SmrtJustin: would you like me to look that up ?
[22:11]	<SmrtJustin>	nerochiaro: I think its a DB problem
[22:12]	<nerochiaro>	SmrtJustin: nope, 0x08nn are LCD-related
[22:12]	<JoshMalone>	nerochiaro: ah -yeah, it'll pay to be a bit smart withyour caching, tehn
[22:12]	<SmrtJustin>	nerochiaro: I add a bunch of songs to the play queue and when I went to see why it wasnt playing them they were all @ | and then I try to play one and it gave the ol No Playable Contents Selected, then errored
[22:12]	<SmrtJustin>	nerochiaro: LCD related?
[22:13]	<SmrtJustin>	added*
[22:14]	<nerochiaro>	SmrtJustin: yes, specifically 0x0801 is raised when you try to print certain characters on the LCD
[22:14]	<nerochiaro>	at least, as far as i can tell from the source
[22:14]	<SmrtJustin>	hmm @ |
[22:15]	<nerochiaro>	JoshMalone: indeed, i have to revise my strategy
[22:15]	<SmrtJustin>	wtf, my play queue function isnt working anymore
[22:15]	<nerochiaro>	JoshMalone: currently i create an empty file of same name on NAND for each file and dir on HDD, but that's proving to be too slow
[22:16]	<nerochiaro>	SmrtJustin: tried already with database rebuild (full) ?
[22:16]	<JoshMalone>	yeah - better off storing a DB-like structure of FS tree
[22:16]	<SmrtJustin>	nerochiaro: yeah
[22:16]	<SmrtJustin>	nerochiaro: I may have found the problem, let me try once again
[22:16]	<nerochiaro>	JoshMalone: yes, but that needs to be updated on-the-fly, so i have to think about an efficent structure for it
[22:17]	<nerochiaro>	JoshMalone: good thing is that 1) 256Mb means lots of space that can be wasted and 2) it should be optimized for fewer writes and many reads
[22:17]	<SmrtJustin>	hmm looks like there was still stuff in the Play Queue, so I removed all the stuff in there and now I'm readding my stuff and it seems to be ok
[22:18]	<nerochiaro>	SmrtJustin: you might want to try and add stuff little at a time to see what makes it choke
[22:18]	<JoshMalone>	you could use a simple tree traversal in a "list" for easy searching and browsing
[22:18]	<JoshMalone>	a breadth-first search tree should work
[22:18]	<JoshMalone>	(thinks back to data structures class)
[22:19]	<SmrtJustin>	nerochiaro: the 2nd time it choked I only added a few songs from the same artist, but this time when I added them I had no problems
[22:19]	<nerochiaro>	JoshMalone: heh, i have to dust off some stuff, but i think you're rigth
[22:20]	<nerochiaro>	SmrtJustin: sorry, i can't really tell what happened then.
[22:20]	<nerochiaro>	JoshMalone: thanks for the input, i'm off to meditate a little on that
[22:20]	<JoshMalone>	cool - ttyl
[22:23]	<SmrtJustin>	nerochiaro: hmm it works now, as long as it doesnt happen again I'm not gonna worry about it.
[22:23]	<nerochiaro>	SmrtJustin: sounds like a plan ;) - hopefully was just a glitch
[22:23]	<SmrtJustin>	yeah
[22:23]	<SmrtJustin>	I thought the Play Queue emptied when you shut the N off?
[22:25]	<nerochiaro>	not sure, i basically never use it.
[22:25]	<SmrtJustin>	I use it a lot...lol
[22:26]	<nerochiaro>	SmrtJustin: i'm more into listening to full albums or full global random
[22:26]	<SmrtJustin>	theres a lot of crap on mine
[22:27]	<SmrtJustin>	I need to come up w/ some script that can check the bitrates of my mp3 dir and if theres anything less than 96kbps it'll move it
[22:28]	<SmrtJustin>	when my bro bought his ipod it came w/ a bunch of music, but most of it is 56kbps, and I dont wanna listen to stuff that sounds like that...
[22:28]	<nerochiaro>	whereas 128 is good for you ?
[22:29]	<SmrtJustin>	not too bad
[22:29]	<SmrtJustin>	I can live w/ anything 96 and greater
[22:29]	<SmrtJustin>	when I encode my stuff I use the standard preset
[22:29]	<SmrtJustin>	that lame has
[22:30]	<nerochiaro>	when i'm out in the street 128 might be good, but in a averagely silent environment i can often hear artifacts at that bitrate
[22:30]	<SmrtJustin>	yeah
[22:30]	<nerochiaro>	SmrtJustin: isn't lame default VBR ?
[22:30]	<SmrtJustin>	56 sounds like AM radio
[22:30]	<SmrtJustin>	nerochiaro: lame's standard preset is VBR
[22:30]	<SmrtJustin>	is there a "default"?
[22:31]	<nerochiaro>	lame --alt-preset-standard i think ?
[22:31]	<Seed>	for those low bitrates there's really no competition to AAC
[22:31]	<nerochiaro>	SmrtJustin: you often see it called LAME APS
[22:31]	<SmrtJustin>	--preset standard --add-id3v2 are the options I use
[22:31]	<noiz77>	hey Yono
[22:32]	<Yono>	hey noiz77
[22:32]	<nerochiaro>	SmrtJustin: yeah, that should be fine
[22:32]	<SmrtJustin>	I dont think theres a good/fast way to see the bitrates of files that exist
[22:32]	<SmrtJustin>	in a folder
[22:34]	<nerochiaro>	SmrtJustin: in xp you see the bitrates directly in the shell folder view
[22:35]	<SmrtJustin>	yeah true, but theres only some files in certain folders that are 56kbps
[22:36]	<nerochiaro>	SmrtJustin: then use one of the countless music library management programs to scan all your files and find the ones that meet your criteria
[22:36]	<SmrtJustin>	like?
[22:37]	<SmrtJustin>	any good linux ones?
[22:38]	<Koron>	anyone know what is the actual problem with neuros manufacturing? were they having massive quality control problems, or are they switching manufacturers or something?
[22:41]	<nerochiaro>	SmrtJustin: do a search for "mp3 collection manager" on sourceforge
[22:42]	<nerochiaro>	SmrtJustin: or similar searches
[22:42]	<nerochiaro>	Koron: no idea. would be nice to have joe around and ask him that question
[23:53]	<Counter89234>	Anyone know when the backorder is going to be over?
[23:53]	<noiz77>	nope
[23:53]	<noiz77>	probably end of march like it says on the site :)
[23:53]	<Counter89234>	grr
[23:53]	<Counter89234>	I was thinking of ordering one... been putting it off for months.
[23:53]	<Counter89234>	Worried about size & quality issues, but the features blow other players away...
[23:54]	<Counter89234>	Know anyone that wants to sell a used 256mb unit? ;-)
[23:54]	<noiz77>	ebay
[23:55]	<Counter89234>	Only units on there are bundles, last I checked
[23:55]	<nerochiaro>	Counter89234: you don't need an HDD ?
[23:55]	<nerochiaro>	flash only ?
[23:55]	<Counter89234>	I'd like one eventually. Just don't have a ton of money to spend at the moment.
[23:56]	<Counter89234>	I might just get the flash player and hold off for N3... the size w/HD is a problem too.
[23:56]	<nerochiaro>	the neuros without an hdd is kind of wasted, IMHO
[23:56]	<Counter89234>	?
[23:56]	<Counter89234>	It's a hell of a lot more convenient than other flash players, from the looks of it.
[23:56]	<Counter89234>	Size aside, that is :-)
[23:57]	<Counter89234>	e.g., the ability to pick tracks from library on the player.
[23:57]	<nerochiaro>	when you have only 256 mb of music that hardly matter
[23:57]	<nerochiaro>	IMHO
[23:58]	<nerochiaro>	but hey, to everyone his own taste i guess :)
[23:58]	<Counter89234>	No, I have a ton of music. Ripping all my CDs as I speak, actually. But what I mean is, the Neuros, as I understand it, has a feature where you can look through your whole collection (on the home computer) on the Neuros,
[23:58]	<Counter89234>	and pick tracks to load onto it next time you connect.
[23:58]	<Counter89234>	Which is better than most players.
[23:59]	<Counter89234>	Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be able to have all my music w/me at all times. But I don't have that much $ to toss down.
[23:59]	<ivel>	USING NSM and Windows
[23:59]	<nerochiaro>	As far as i know, that feature is supported only by the NSM, and NSM is an horrible collection of bugs