Log from #neuros IRC channel

<Yono>

"Wonderbrick..."

<Yono>

"or Brick of Failure?

<Yono>

Choose your player."

"Neuros: the iPod fat evil twin ?"

er, no, it won't work very well i guess

"Neuros. Because freedom isn't free."

[20:00]

good one gernika. throw the acronym "TI" in the mix somehow, and you have a winner

[20:00]

Neuros becuase windows sucks!

[20:00]

AmericanTechpush: with the spelling error, will be even better

[20:01]

;)

[20:02]

but really, as i said to garbage some time ago, the slogan i suggested is really the line i use to answer to the people who ask me "what's that?" - it always works

[20:03]

<DeepB>

mine would be: "Well, it actually used to work just fine."

[20:03]

haha

[20:04]

DeepB: what about "1.5 meters of free fall, and still works ?"

<DeepB>

not still, no more

you broke it ?

<DeepB>

it blowed itself by its own meanings

damn. when ?

[20:06]

<DeepB>

i noticed it today, it worked yesterday

[20:06]

The Digital Music Revolution

[20:06]

DeepB: so it wont' just turn on ? or what ?

[20:07]

<DeepB>

it doesn't turn on while on the HD backpack

[20:08]

so maybe is just the HDD that's fucked ?

[20:08]

<Yono>

yeah, I had a corrupt HD do that to me before

[20:08]

<DeepB>

on the small one it randomly choses betwen: a: not turning on, b: wake up as is the USB cable has been plugged (which is not), or c: freezes after a couple of seconds

[20:09]

<Yono>

do you get any strange chars on the computer explorer?\

[20:09]

<DeepB>

*as if

[20:09]

DeepB: so what are you going to do now ? try to send it back ? fix it yourself ? game over ?

[20:10]

The Digital Music Revolution.. Your way!

[20:10]

<DeepB>

nerochiaro: dunno, i'll try to get in touch with NA tomorrow to see what my options are

[20:11]

<DeepB>

the funniest thing of all, is that it is actually carrying an official fw (2.28)

[20:11]

DeepB: well, good luck then. maybe they will spot your problem and it's something you can fix easily (like something is wrong with the brain contacts)

<DeepB>

i highly doubt it

<Yono>

hi marek

me too, but you never know. they say the support folks at NA are very good.

<marek>

hi Yono, hi all

[20:13]

<DeepB>

yeah, Michael already saved my (actually, its) ass a while ago

[20:13]

hi all.

[20:14]

DeepB: see ? maybe you will get lucky again.

[20:14]

hi Chawn420

[20:15]

hi nero. how's the new job?

[20:16]

well, seems interesting, but i'm still being trained on the code i will have to work on, so i have not really started.

[20:17]

Chawn420: bad thing is we have ugly computers and not flexible work hours, but i'll get used to it

[20:18]

i see. yeah, i've been lucky at my company. i can pretty much make my own hours...and my PC isn't too shabby.

[20:19]

i was used to have very flexible hours too, that's why is a little hard to adjust

[20:19]

how far do you commute?

[20:20]

yeah, i don't know how i'd handle going back to an 8-5 regimem. not much of a regimen type of person... ;-)

[20:21]

that's 25 kilometers, around 1 hour of train+subway. And for the computers, "shabby" doesn't do them justice, "crap" would be better. I have been given a 500mhz machine, with 128mb of (slow) RAM. most of the work we do is with win2k terminal services, but still it sucks

[20:21]

takes 10 minutes just to start up

[20:22]

ouch.

[20:22]

how much does it cost for the train? i have that option, but it's quite expensive.

[20:23]

er, train+subway is around 60 euros a month

[20:24]

but it's not a matter of choice. with a car, traffic is a nightmare and parking is worse. i will die in two days if i was forced to take a car to go to work daily

[20:25]

it's probably about that price here, but other than going to work there's not good access from the trains.

[20:26]

traffic isn't that good either, but i go late to miss rush hour and i can go where i want after work with the car.

[20:26]

25km twice a day would probably cost more than 60e/month anyway, right?

[20:27]

by car in the traffic ? much more

[20:27]

say, is 8-5 the typical work hours in the US ?

[20:29]

<Yono>

usually either 8-5 or 7-4

[20:29]

<DeepB>

60 EUR is unexpensive, plus you're avoiding the parking nightmare

[20:29]

Yono: whoa. early birds down there. here is 9-6 for most jobs

[20:30]

nerochiaro: 40 hr workweek baby. that's what we're told makes us good [little] americans.

[20:30]

DeepB: indeed. the stress would kill me otherwise. plus i get access to all surface and underground transport in the whole city with that price, which is great

[20:31]

Chawn420: 40hr is standard here too

[20:31]

cheekrat: it would probably be around that price, but i'd be paying just for transportation to work only

[20:31]

Chawn420: germany has less, if i'm not mistaken, but i'm not sure

<DeepB>

35h my guess

<DeepB>

which is great

Really? I thought it was 30 or 35...read something about protests because they were trying to change it.

nerochiaro: does it depend on whether you work for the gov't or a private company?

[20:33]

I would pay 60 euros in a second for full access to my city.

[20:33]

But that's not the choice I have living in the land of 4 lane freeways (SoCal)

[20:34]

Chawn420: no, 40 is pretty much standard here. maybe some govt jobs have less than 40 hours, but i can't say for sure.

[20:35]

Chawn420: Hehe, yay for CA

[20:35]

Chawn420: here (milan, italy), is the land of the highly congested, 2 lane, old broken "freeways"

[20:36]

Nerochiaro: ok. i'd be curious to see, by country, what normal work hours are.

[20:36]

IT really doesn't matter how large the freeway is. It WILL fill up.

[20:36]

someday, i'll look that it.

Chawn420: me too

gernika: Exactly!

cheekrat: you in LA?

nope, central valley

gernika: yeah, but smaller fills up faster, and crashes block the road for more time

gernika: try to tell that to the oil and car companies that run our government! ;-)

Bakersfield, to be precise. Land of cow dung and the choking haze

chreekat: sorry to call you cheekrat! ;-)

Haha np. That's kinda funny

I've been through there...on the way to Vegas (baby!).

Back in Idaho, traffic wasn't bad at all. The freeway in Idaho means 85 from Boise to Seattle, with no stopping unless you need gas.

I'm in San Diego.

ah! pasta is cooked. i'll have dinner. later

Here on the east coast they have all these fucking toll roads.

god they are so stupid.

Back in Vermont, it wasn't bad either. except for the cow crossing induced traffic jams!

hehehe.

[20:39]

Ny Thurway sucks

[20:39]

gernika: I lived in Mass. for 5 yrs while going to college.

[20:39]

Chawn420: Oh really? Have you heard of Paul Graham?

[20:40]

Their tolls are pretty bad on the Mass Pike.

[20:40]

gernika: no. from VT or MA?

[20:40]

The new 2 door cd rocks

oops

He's a professor at Harvard. He's doing this Summer Startup program -- it was slashdotted on Friday. I was just wondering. Anyway, if I get into the program I'm moving to Cambridge.

3 doors down Cd that is

Nice. Boston is a great city if you don't mind bad weather half of the time.

I do, so hopefully I'll only be there in the summer.

[20:42]

;)

[20:42]

You should try Syracuse NY snowiest City in USA

[20:42]

I went to school in Worcester, Worcester Poly. Institute.

[20:43]

But the weather was an improvement over northern VT! Sometimes it would get down to -40-50 deg. F, without windchill!

[20:43]

Chawn420 -- that's why cold is often described as bitter - that's how it makes you feel.

[20:43]

AmericanTechpush: Lake effect snow...we got some of that.

American Techpush: I contest that, I think Buffalo could give you guys a run for your money

gernika: ;-) especially, if you haven't seen the sun for a week!

We get blasted

California living bastard

Nope

gernika: i have a couch if you find the means to get out here! ;-)

AmericanTechpush: I guess you forget our 7 feet of snow in just 2 or 3 days that we had a few year ago in Buffalo

Bufflo lags behind us

Hahah. Never been to LA except the Airport, so it's on my list. I'll keep that in mind.

No I did not forget

yeah, i might never leave!

[20:46]

Like I said, I'm in San Diego, about 2 hrs driving from LAX.

I don't think I'd like to live in LA. Generally, people are too fake...but there's some good stuff up there for sure.

The average snofall for buffalo is 93.5 inches.

Speaking of VT, I need to catch the UVM vs. Michigan St. basketball game.

You guys have a good meeting. I'll read the logs later.

Oh, sorry. San Diego. That makes you even more ofa bastard

[20:48]

gernka: despite that comment...the offer stands.

[20:48]

:) thx. l8r

[20:49]

AmericanTechpush: www.ncdc.noaa.gov

[20:49]

syracuse is 108

[20:50]

Man, i'm dumb, was looking at the wrong thing.

[20:52]

It ok I make mistakes all the time..

[20:54]

<Bruno>

Hi all

[20:54]

Hi Bruno

[20:55]

* nerochiaro licks his whiskers after a very nice dinner

[20:56]

hi Bruno

[20:56]

<Bruno>

hi nerochiaro. what's for dinner?

[20:57]

Pasta with pesto sauce.

[20:57]

from the looks of it, whiskas

[20:58]

<Bruno>

mmm. not bad. I just had some bread and brie for lunch. Quite good.

[20:58]

simple, but nice

<Yono>

hello all

Bruno: are you an NA engineer, or am i confusing you with someone else ?

wb yono

<Yono>

did I miss anything while my cable modem was attempting to commit suicide?

<Bruno>

There were some suggestions for Xscale last time, if I remember correctly.

Yono: i think not

<Yono>

good

<Bruno>

Yes, I have worked with NA for a while.

<Yono>

good to have you here Bruno

Bruno: yes, i think so

<Bruno>

Thank you. Good to be with you all.

<Yono>

and yes, there were suggestions for Xscale and AMD Alchemy

Hi Joe

<Yono>

hello Joe

xchat expired and then I had to remember my nickserv password

so, sorry I'm late.

Hi Joe

hi everyone!

<Bruno>

I would like to bring the XScale vs Alchemy vs TI back

hi mgao

<Bruno>

at some point later.

<Bruno>

Let's see what Joe is up to first.

well, we are gathered here today...

to discuss a couple things.

<mgao>

hello, everybody...

<Bruno>

Hi Michael.

first, well yes, I should make some introductions

[21:03]

Michael heads firmware for Neuros

[21:03]

and wrote much of the code for the current Neuros

[21:03]

I've been working with Bruno for some time now, although he's relatively new to the "Neuros" team.

[21:04]

he's IS our hardware team at this point :)

[21:05]

(obviously we're not doing a lot of HW development in house at this point

[21:05]

also, Bruno and Michael, you should be aware that all teh discussion here is logged and publically available

[21:05]

so don't say or disclose anything you don't want to be public.

[21:06]

ok, so I wanted to talk about a couple things today

[21:07]

first the future of the Neuros hardware.

[21:07]

essentially, as you all know there is a great desire to make our Neuros hardware open

[21:07]

but on the other hand, we have considerable investment in the TI platform

[21:08]

and at the same time, it appears that TI is a leader in the multimedia space

[21:08]

so, I would like to have some discussion of that "conflict" since clearly TI is not the most OS friendly company in the world.

[21:09]

the second aspect of the hardware that I'd like to talk about is this idea of a "universal BUS" so to speak.

[21:09]

there was a recent forum topic for example that talked about adding DJ peripherals, etc.

[21:09]

how do we allow that? what bus is most suitable, etc?

[21:10]

the final discussion that I'd like to have is a continuation of the SW development structure that we started last time.

[21:10]

as an immediate example, we've talked about starting a SF.net project

[21:11]

for porting uclinux to the recorder.

[21:11]

but there are real questions as to whether or not this is a worthwhile effort and I'd like to talk about why there are some doubts about that and how we should handle.

[21:12]

so anyway, let's get started with the hardware discussion.

[21:12]

Bruno, you and I have talked about HW many times

and I know you are very familiar with the various alternatives, so I wanted you to join us because folks were asking questions about AMD, etc as alternatives to a TI solution.

what are your thoughts about that?

Bruno: you mentioned earlier that you wanted to bring forward again the discussion about XScale and Alchemy ?

yes, that's probably a good starting point.

<Bruno>

There are several things to be considered, architecturally

<Bruno>

The base processor (AMD, etc) is just one.

<Bruno>

Others are things such as

<Bruno>

- Can we accomplish what we want?

<Bruno>

(and how easy it is to do it) <- KEY

<Bruno>

- Can we get external support for it?

<Bruno>

(and how easy it is to get it?) <- key

<Bruno>

- Can we leverage the OS community?

<Bruno>

(and how easy ...

[21:16]

<Bruno>

So, in terms of selecting a processor, it can be quite a subjective proposition.

[21:16]

<Bruno>

There is also the angle of getting the right mix of pripherals

[21:16]

<Bruno>

and here too it depends on what the end goal is.

<Bruno>

(or goals are)

<Bruno>

I tend to give a lot of importance to the availability of core technologies

are we talking about the N3, right ? the PVP 442 product is already decided, or is this about that too ?

<Bruno>

on the specific platforms, and how these technologies

<Bruno>

can be used and distributed.

[21:18]

<Bruno>

Also, a direct consequence of how well the (SW) technologies are implemented

[21:18]

nero: it's about future products generally, but yes 442 (v. 1) has already been developed.

[21:18]

<Bruno>

or fit in the hardware, is the power consumption.

<Bruno>

If battery life is an important factor, then you have to consider the entire range

<Bruno>

of items above, plus some.

<Bruno>

With that said, I will say a couple of things about each family of CPUs

<Bruno>

and see what your opinions are:

<Bruno>

TI:

[21:20]

<Bruno>

Actually, before I go on, let me say that I am focusing on video applications,

[21:20]

<Bruno>

as audio apps are significantly less complex.

[21:20]

<Bruno>

SO, TI:

<Bruno>

This is by far the leading company in *programmable* multimedia chips

<Bruno>

They have been shipping tons of different models, with very different

*programmable* meaning not hardwired?

<Bruno>

apps and power levels in pretty much all market segments.

[21:22]

<Bruno>

These people are sharp in bringing costs down, and with it goes the flexibility, as

[21:22]

<Bruno>

all extra feature is removed to save silicon area.

<Bruno>

There are a few "third party vendors" that control the SW technology

<Bruno>

and they will not let things go to public domain.

<Bruno>

But if you can build a system with TI silicon (and you

<Bruno>

pick the right one) you will probably end up with the

<Bruno>

most cost effect gadget to do what you want it to do.

<Bruno>

Pro's:

[21:24]

<Bruno>

Power efficient, cheap, highly integrated, "focused" silicon.

[21:24]

<Bruno>

Cons:

<Bruno>

It is harder to make it a general purpose app and maintain accepatble

<Bruno>

or desired level of performance

<Bruno>

CODECs are not available freely, and even if paid for will not

<Bruno>

be allowed to be distributed freely

[21:26]

<Bruno>

Other technologies (device drivers, middleware, etc) that are in OS community

[21:26]

<Bruno>

are harder to be ported.

[21:26]

<Bruno>

Any comments so far?

*programmable* meaning not hardwired?

<Bruno>

Yes, programmable meaning not hardwired.

<Bruno>

At least "not hardwaired" enough to allow flexibility defining

go on, I think you'll probably answer a lot of questions as you proceed.

I do have one question

<Bruno>

what the end goal is, like MPEG-4 encoding machine vs XviD decoder machine.

when you say video applications, how much of this is pertinent to sophisticated audio applications, etc

like multitrack recording, pitch control, etc.