[00:00]	<JoeBorn>	see you all next week.
[00:00]	<mgao>	see you then
[00:00]	* [Chameleon]  is confused by that abstract analogy
[00:03]	<nerochiaro>	little impromptu poll for everyone still around: "do you feel like a chump with your neuros when sitting beside an iPod owner ?"
[00:03]	<pwarren>	hell no!
[00:04]	<JoshMalone>	no
[00:05]	<[Chameleon]>	no
[00:05]	<nerochiaro>	seems that we need to convince Joe of that too ;)
[00:05]	<[Chameleon]>	because I know that my Neuros could CRUSH the puny girlypod
[00:05]	* pwarren  goes away to read logs.
[00:05]	<nerochiaro>	"crush" literally, you mean ?
[00:05]	<[Chameleon]>	yes
[00:05]	<GenjuroXL>	drop it on one
[00:05]	<[Chameleon]>	my post must be read in an Austrian accent
[00:06]	<gernika>	ipods are made of steel aren't they?
[00:06]	<[Chameleon]>	er, not post, uhh, comment
[00:06]	<chreekat>	He has a point, though; just because a color screen would be pointless doesn't mean every other player won't have one
[00:06]	<JoshMalone>	color screens can be made w/ option to switch to grayscale and save batts
[00:06]	<chreekat>	That's what I'm thinking should be done. Have it as on option, because it's not going to be 'luxury', it's going to be standard. Then, we hardcores can just switch it off.
[00:07]	<nerochiaro>	chreekat: so what ? do we want to neuros 3 to be a mainstream player jack of all trades and master of none ?
[00:07]	<[Chameleon]>	JoshMalone: what device has that?
[00:07]	<nerochiaro>	JoshMalone: that would be nice
[00:07]	<[Chameleon]>	JoshMalone: I've never heard of it.
[00:07]	<nerochiaro>	JoshMalone: is it more costly than the colour-only option ?
[00:07]	<GenjuroXL>	triggerflood
[00:08]	<JoshMalone>	cell phones have those
[00:08]	<[Chameleon]>	which cell phone?
[00:08]	<[Chameleon]>	URL?
[00:08]	<JoshMalone>	I think they just switch to a dual-scan mode
[00:08]	<[Chameleon]>	URL?
[00:08]	<chreekat>	nerochiaro: If the Neuros is the only player in 2 years without a color screen, I think it would hurt its marketability.
[00:08]	* [Chameleon]  doesn't believe it until he sees it
[00:08]	<[Chameleon]>	chreekat: yes, without a color screen, it will not be a contender.
[00:09]	<nerochiaro>	chreekat: not if it has features that no other player has (e.g. high quality audio hardware, great open software, niche codecs)
[00:09]	<chreekat>	That is true
[00:09]	<chreekat>	I'm certainly not arguing FOR a screen. :) Just a bit of devil's advocate.
[00:09]	<ShyK>	the next neuros must have a color screen or indeed its success won't be as good as it could. and if you find such a screen like Josh mentioned, that could be a great solution.
[00:10]	<nerochiaro>	i mean, i think it does not have a chance to be a contender for the mass market (iPod's market). so it will need to thrive in its own niche market: high-end audio
[00:10]	<ShyK>	recently high end audio equipment from all areas comes with color screens
[00:10]	<JoshMalone>	www.sharpsma.com
[00:10]	* marek  wants a large touchscreen color display on an ipod sized device :)
[00:11]	<ShyK>	it's inevitable
[00:11]	<marek>	ShyK: which ones do you have in mind?
[00:12]	<ShyK>	marek: various digital mixers, synthesizers, samplers, effects
[00:12]	<[Chameleon]>	JoshMalone: thanks. Very interesting. I like that it's ultra low power
[00:12]	<[Chameleon]>	JoshMalone: send that to Joe
[00:12]	<nerochiaro>	indeed. sent that to joe ASAP
[00:12]	<AmericanTechpush>	In a nut shell. The Neuros needs to go more mainstream while further strengthening it’s position as a most advanced audio player. The number one step in that direction is size. Just getting it down to near Ipod size will accomplish this.
[00:12]	<[Chameleon]>	AmericanTechpush: yes
[00:13]	<chreekat>	I agree as well
[00:13]	<nerochiaro>	N3 will get down in size, that's already decided it seems.
[00:14]	<chreekat>	Really, if it were iPod sized, the screen almost wouldn't matter. The size issue dwarfs color screen in terms of 'mainstream'
[00:14]	<AmericanTechpush>	The second change is that has to be more user friendly ie a simpler interface. No sync software, just cut and paste
[00:14]	<nerochiaro>	AmericanTechpush: what about being able to use both ?
[00:14]	<[Chameleon]>	chreekat: but without a color screen, it just won't be an option for many consumers.
[00:15]	<marek>	ShyK: ah, true
[00:15]	<chreekat>	[Chameleon]: Yeah, I do think it's an issue.
[00:15]	<AmericanTechpush>	The would be ideal
[00:15]	<AmericanTechpush>	I like the sysn software
[00:15]	<chreekat>	nerochiaro: I agree. Sync software suits me fine; leave the hard work to the much more general purpsoe PC
[00:16]	<AmericanTechpush>	but I love my computers
[00:16]	<AmericanTechpush>	and understand them
[00:16]	<chreekat>	it just makes sense. :) But then, drag-and-drop would be immensely cleaner to the uninitiated
[00:16]	<marek>	is it decided which dsp will power n3?
[00:16]	<AmericanTechpush>	I will wipe my computer at any time if gives me problems of any sort. Average user wil not
[00:17]	<chreekat>	It sure didn't sound like it.
[00:17]	<nerochiaro>	marek: not yet
[00:17]	<marek>	nerochiaro: will it be >300mhz?
[00:17]	<AmericanTechpush>	These two things alsong will propel sales greatly hands down
[00:18]	<nerochiaro>	marek: we don't know yet. all the possible chips mentioned this evening and last sunday are worthy contenders it seems
[00:18]	<[Chameleon]>	Even TI still?
[00:18]	<[Chameleon]>	isn't TI anti-OSS?
[00:18]	<marek>	it needs to be powerful :)
[00:19]	<chreekat>	Yeah, Bruno made clear that TI rules in terms of performance and price
[00:20]	<nerochiaro>	[Chameleon], chreekat: it's not decided yet, even though bruno and joe seems to like TI
[00:21]	<[Chameleon]>	well, they do have a lot already invested in TI
[00:21]	<chreekat>	right
[00:21]	<[Chameleon]>	I really don't care as long as it can run Linux.
[00:21]	<[Chameleon]>	if it can run Linux, everything else will fall into place.
[00:21]	<AmericanTechpush>	If I had to guess TI will end up being the choice
[00:21]	<marek>	it needs to be a platform that will prevail with respect to the future and is as oss friendly as possible
[00:21]	<JoshMalone>	intel arm can be competitive in terms of battery performace and MIPS, as well
[00:21]	<[Chameleon]>	yeah
[00:21]	<chreekat>	Heck, all I want to do is trick out the interface. :)
[00:21]	<JoshMalone>	xscale, I mean
[00:21]	<[Chameleon]>	JoshMalone: but probably not price.
[00:22]	<JoshMalone>	not price - compared to TI DSP
[00:22]	<GenjuroXL>	hrm
[00:22]	<JoshMalone>	you're talking prolly $10-$15 more
[00:22]	<nerochiaro>	JoshMalone: what about that SHARC chip ?
[00:22]	<GenjuroXL>	can you freely program that dsp?
[00:22]	<GenjuroXL>	like, run any code on it like it's a real cpu?
[00:22]	<[Chameleon]>	did they talk any more about the AMD Alchemy?
[00:22]	<nerochiaro>	GenjuroXL: IIRC the xscale IS a generic CPU
[00:23]	<GenjuroXL>	nerochiaro: i was refering to the TI thing
[00:23]	<JoshMalone>	xscale == Intel's ARM chip
[00:23]	<nerochiaro>	oh, sorry
[00:23]	<GenjuroXL>	arm and xscale are real processors of course :)
[00:23]	<GenjuroXL>	without FPUs
[00:23]	<JoshMalone>	(ARM + MMX + some proprietary enhancements)
[00:23]	<marek>	how about samsung(also arm)?
[00:23]	<marek>	price-wise
[00:23]	<JoshMalone>	samsung makes more specific-purpose arms
[00:23]	<marek>	ah is ee
[00:24]	<JoshMalone>	they do tend to be cheaper, tho
[00:24]	<GenjuroXL>	"fine with me as long as it can run libmusepack" ;)
[00:24]	<JoshMalone>	you see a LOT of small embedded boards with samsung ARMs
[00:26]	<JoshMalone>	but the XScale is designed with battery-powered PDAs in mind
[00:26]	<JoshMalone>	PDAs that want to run video and audio applicationss
[00:26]	<[Chameleon]>	my PDA runs an XScale
[00:26]	<[Chameleon]>	and does video and audio
[00:27]	<[Chameleon]>	Tungsten T3. 400 MHz XScale
[00:27]	* nerochiaro  needs sleep. see you all next time.
[00:27]	<[Chameleon]>	k, bye
[00:27]	<GenjuroXL>	cya
[00:27]	* [Chameleon]  needs a nap
[00:28]	<GenjuroXL>	i second that quit message :)
[00:28]	<chreekat>	Heh, how do you cite a manual? I've never seen bibliographic entries for them. :-P
[00:28]	<chreekat>	I mean, there's no 'author'. I could figure the rest out
[00:28]	<JoshMalone>	[Chameleon], yeah - we make XScale boards
[00:29]	<JoshMalone>	and they can do plenty of stuff with video - I play mpegs on the board all the time to show off
[00:29]	<JoshMalone>	the biggest problem is reading the movie from memory (our boards have low memory bandwidth)
[00:32]	<[Chameleon]>	I read movies from my SD card
[00:34]	<GenjuroXL>	get a 4G microdrive and store some vobs :)
[00:34]	<JoshMalone>	well - I gotta get some dinner
[00:34]	<JoshMalone>	'night all
[00:34]	<GenjuroXL>	night
[00:34]	<chreekat>	See ya
[00:39]	<[Chameleon]>	GenjuroXL: I've got a 512 MB SD and I've transcoded several DVDs to XVID MPEG and watched the entire movie on my PDA.
[00:39]	<GenjuroXL>	:)
[00:39]	<GenjuroXL>	now if your device could play avc
[00:39]	<GenjuroXL>	but portables are too weak for that
[00:40]	<[Chameleon]>	avc?? URL?
[00:41]	<GenjuroXL>	[Chameleon]: aha h264 or something
[00:41]	<GenjuroXL>	the new shit :)
[00:42]	<GenjuroXL>	it's an mpeg4 video profile
[00:42]	<GenjuroXL>	aha=aka
[00:42]	<GenjuroXL>	my hands are tired :)
[00:43]	<GenjuroXL>	i finished turrican2 and turrican3 today, that fried my hands basically :)
[01:01]	<marek>	nite all
[01:10]	<gernika>	you guys should remind visitors to the channel, like Joe and the other programmers, that they can block their messages from being logged
[01:11]	<GenjuroXL>	will everything i say here be used against me? :(
[01:11]	<gernika>	only in a court of law
[01:11]	<GenjuroXL>	ok
[01:23]	<pwarren>	GenjuroXL: I remember playing turrican on the original Gameboy.
[01:23]	<Yono>	gernika: I forget, how do you do block messages?
[01:23]	<GenjuroXL>	that must have been one of the worst ports of the game, pwarren :)
[01:23]	<GenjuroXL>	the amiga versions were the best ones
[01:23]	<gernika>	loglibrarybot: help
[01:23]	<loglibrarybot>	I come from www.loglibrary.com. I accept these commands:
[01:23]	<loglibrarybot>	[off] turns off logging for the line it precedes.
[01:23]	<loglibrarybot>	|| turns off logging for the line it precedes.
[01:23]	<pwarren>	Amiga eh. a bit before my time ;o)
[01:24]	<GenjuroXL>	early 90s
[01:24]	<Yono>	ah, thanks
[01:24]	<GenjuroXL>	actually i had a gameboy before i had an amiga500
[01:24]	<GenjuroXL>	*shrug*
[01:26]	<pwarren>	hmm, we (me and my Bro) had a gameboy that mum bought duty free.
[01:26]	<pwarren>	it would have been about 94/95.
[01:27]	<GenjuroXL>	got my GB in 91, iirc
[01:27]	<GenjuroXL>	amiga in 92
[01:27]	<pwarren>	but we were never allowed to have a game console or computer to ourselves.
[01:27]	<GenjuroXL>	because computer games make kids violent :)
[01:27]	<pwarren>	Dad had his 286 which he used for work, and had some fun games on it.
[01:27]	<pwarren>	which we could play.
[01:28]	<pwarren>	I think it was more that parents didn't think we needed more than one entertainment machine.
[01:29]	<pwarren>	but I subverted the system. by saving up enough pennies for my own PC!
[01:30]	<pwarren>	back semi-OnTopic. I really enjoyed Turrican, is there a PC port available?
[01:31]	<GenjuroXL>	yes, but it's shitty
[01:31]	<GenjuroXL>	you're best off playing the amiga version in winuae
[01:31]	<GenjuroXL>	www.winuae.net
[01:31]	<pwarren>	or getting an Amiga?
[01:31]	<GenjuroXL>	or that
[01:32]	<GenjuroXL>	winuae is cheaper, though
[01:32]	<GenjuroXL>	free :)
[01:32]	<pwarren>	heh, what about the actual game? (ROM?)
[01:32]	<GenjuroXL>	that's available for free too :)
[01:32]	<GenjuroXL>	the publisher released it some years ago
[01:32]	<pwarren>	Nice!
[01:32]	<GenjuroXL>	the only copyrighted thing you need is an amiga system rom
[04:16]	<TekkieOttawa>	Hi everyone. Just ordered my 40GB bundle!
[05:14]	<[Chameleon]>	cool
[05:50]	<SmrtJustin>	night all
[16:55]	<GenjuroXL>	freenoded :(
[20:26]	<DeepB>	humm..
[20:26]	<GenjuroXL>	omg activity
[20:27]	<DeepB>	i've recently tried the eyecandiness of OS X Panther...
[20:27]	<DeepB>	not bad, not bad... looks fine
[20:27]	<DeepB>	but this KDE 3.4 kinda rocks
[20:29]	<DeepB>	and it's really quite useable, not unlike the stupid|useless LookingGlass from Sun
[20:30]	<nerochiaro>	what's lookingglass ? that 3d UI crap ?
[20:30]	<DeepB>	yeah, that C.R.A.P.
[20:30]	<DeepB>	amusing, but crap after all
[20:31]	<unknown_lamer>	DeepB: Window Maker is easier to use than KDE :-)
[20:32]	<DeepB>	yeah, and an abacus too
[20:32]	<DeepB>	i'm not really much into GUIs
[20:32]	<GenjuroXL>	more into GURLs? ;)
[20:33]	<DeepB>	but this 3.4 one kinda blowed me up, it looks really nice, and it lets you work
[20:33]	<nerochiaro>	DeepB: in regards to 3D UIs, this one pretty much sums up my feelings: www.useit.com
[20:33]	<unknown_lamer>	www.dysrhythmiaband.com <== I saw them at the Black Cat in DC last night and they ROCK
[20:33]	<unknown_lamer>	Instrumental Progressive Rock
[20:33]	<unknown_lamer>	The bass player was insane
[20:34]	<nerochiaro>	unknown_lamer: mmh, let's check this out
[20:35]	<nerochiaro>	DeepB: so what did support say ?
[20:35]	<nerochiaro>	any hope ?
[20:35]	<DeepB>	mostly good news
[20:36]	<DeepB>	K is pretty forward to send me a new unit, free of charge
[20:36]	<nerochiaro>	cool
[20:37]	<DeepB>	i've tried the backpack alone, via USB
[20:37]	<DeepB>	and it seems like fried also
[20:37]	<DeepB>	no leds, no spinning
[20:37]	<nerochiaro>	and still no idea on how did that happen ?
[20:38]	<DeepB>	nope, i went on a short trip last Sat
[20:38]	<DeepB>	and it was playing MyFi all the time
[20:38]	<DeepB>	then i came home and left it charging, as usual
[20:39]	<DeepB>	by Sunday, it didn't work
[20:39]	<nerochiaro>	that's pretty unnerving. electronics dying for no reason scare me
[20:39]	<DeepB>	you must be exporting gremlins or something
[20:40]	<nerochiaro>	nah, we didn't even talk for several days before it happened. no chance of contagion from my gremlins.
[20:40]	<nerochiaro>	(we all know electronics gremlins move via IRC)
[20:40]	<DeepB>	could be, could be
[20:41]	<DeepB>	i'm gonna recheck it all again
[20:43]	<nerochiaro>	so you phoned them ? or email ?
[20:43]	<DeepB>	just mail
[20:44]	<DeepB>	weird
[20:45]	<DeepB>	i took off the backpack screws, and the led blinked
[20:46]	<nerochiaro>	you tickled it
[20:50]	<DeepB>	USB power supply is 4.5V rite?
[20:50]	<JoshMalone>	USB spec is from 4.75 to 5.15, I think
[20:51]	<JoshMalone>	yeah - 4.75 is minimum per the spec
[20:52]	<DeepB>	k, ty Josh
[20:53]	<gernika>	loglibrarybot: help
[20:53]	<loglibrarybot>	I come from www.loglibrary.com. I accept these commands:
[20:53]	<loglibrarybot>	[off] turns off logging for the line it precedes.
[20:53]	<loglibrarybot>	|| turns off logging for the line it precedes.
[20:53]	<DeepB>	i managed to revive the backpack, and it mounted just fine
[20:54]	<DeepB>	let's see it i can throw some magic on the brain
[20:55]	<nerochiaro>	how did you do it ? just opening it up ?
[20:57]	<DeepB>	i unplugged the batteries, and let it rest for a while
[20:58]	<DeepB>	it apparently liked that
[21:11]	<DeepB>	no dice, brain still nuked
[21:12]	<JoshMalone>	:(
[21:14]	<DeepB>	maybe if i manage to make it load a custom fw with no USB cable detection it will work
[21:15]	<DeepB>	gotta check this one
[21:15]	<JoshMalone>	starting to sound like FW problem - liek the bootloader is hosed and needs to be jtagged
[21:16]	<DeepB>	what could have been the reason for the hosing?
[21:17]	<JoshMalone>	flash chip malfunction, burning out a cell, perhaps, etc.
[21:17]	<JoshMalone>	you burn your flash a lot - right?
[21:18]	<JoshMalone>	flash is like the 1 thing that firmware CAN damage :(
[21:19]	<DeepB>	i did it earlier, but between the build i sent to you and the latest one could have been weeks in the middle
[21:19]	<JoshMalone>	(or the CPLD, but that's less liekly)
[21:20]	<DeepB>	and currently it has official 2.28, as i was giving it a shot for this last weekend
[21:20]	<JoshMalone>	hmm....that's kinda odd
[21:28]	<DeepB>	well.. the HD backpack was working fine alone
[21:29]	<DeepB>	plugged in the brain
[21:29]	<DeepB>	no dice
[21:29]	<DeepB>	removed the brain, and now the backpack is dead again
[21:31]	<JoshMalone>	okay - so the brain is trying to boot, it gets halfway thru init'ing something on the backpack, locks up, and now the backpack is half-way booted
[21:31]	<JoshMalone>	I still say points to firmware hose-age on the brain
[21:31]	<JoshMalone>	prolly if you 'reset' the backpack (remove power for some time) it'll come back
[21:32]	<JoshMalone>	need to reset a CPLD or something
[21:32]	<DeepB>	yeah, doin' it again
[21:32]	<DeepB>	after already reconstructing it and putting the screws back on
[21:32]	<DeepB>	...
[21:33]	<DeepB>	dude, where's my CTRL+ALT+DEL
[21:34]	<DeepB>	so, if i manage to put a brand new bootloader there...
[21:34]	<DeepB>	should i have a fix?
[21:36]	<JoshMalone>	yeah - prolly need to re-flash the bootloader
[21:36]	<JoshMalone>	but - that's likely to require JTAG :(
[21:40]	<nerochiaro>	DeepB: isn't there a second copy of the bootloader somewhere, accessible via one "secret" keycombo ? i seem to remember you mentioning that
[21:40]	<nerochiaro>	something involving the HiSi key
[21:41]	<JoshMalone>	ooooo - a secret bootloader :)
[21:41]	* JoshMalone  wants
[21:41]	<DeepB>	DOWN + HiSi
[21:41]	<DeepB>	already tried that
[21:41]	<JoshMalone>	now - what does that do, exactly?
[21:42]	<JoshMalone>	have you tried down+hisi with a "rebooted" backpack (freshly reset)?
[21:42]	<DeepB>	boots off from a backup bootloader
[21:43]	<DeepB>	yep, and tried it also with an old application loader
[21:44]	<JoshMalone>	ugh
[21:44]	<DeepB>	and then the newer one
[21:45]	<JoshMalone>	okay - here's a LONG shot: open HD pack, disconnect battery AND hard drive, then reconnect battery but not the HD....in case you're also current starved
[21:45]	<JoshMalone>	try booting the bootloader like that...
[21:45]	<JoshMalone>	it's a hail Mary pass, though
[21:46]	<nerochiaro>	"hail Mary pass" ?
[21:46]	<JoshMalone>	oh - american football term
[21:46]	<JoshMalone>	roughly translates to "throw the ball and pray" :)
[21:47]	<nerochiaro>	"desperate manouver" was my guess
[21:47]	<nerochiaro>	;
[21:47]	<JoshMalone>	right :)
[21:49]	<DeepB>	also, did i mention that when while sitting on the small backpack it turns on all by itself at random intervals?
[21:50]	<nerochiaro>	do you often to that ? i mean, sitting on it
[21:51]	<DeepB>	the brain, i mean :)
[21:51]	<JoshMalone>	DeepB: that sounds like it's stuck in the official firmware's "charging" mode
[21:51]	<nerochiaro>	ah! would have been really weird otherwise :P
[21:51]	<JoshMalone>	2.28 does that when it's supposed to be charging and the safety switch is on
[21:52]	<DeepB>	humm... unable to mount hd
[21:53]	<DeepB>	that's ok, it's like 3ft on his left, unwired
[21:53]	<JoshMalone>	???
[21:53]	<DeepB>	the hail Mary maneouver
[21:53]	<DeepB>	i'm on it
[21:54]	<JoshMalone>	LOL - okay
[21:54]	<JoshMalone>	me is so lost in this conversation, but oh well :)
[21:59]	<DeepB>	humm
[21:59]	<DeepB>	hd replugged
[21:59]	<DeepB>	brain replugged
[21:59]	<DeepB>	battery replugged
[21:59]	<DeepB>	unable to mount blablablah
[22:00]	<DeepB>	i need a smoke...
[22:02]	<JoshMalone>	LOL
[22:02]	<JoshMalone>	sorry, man
[22:04]	<DeepB>	don't worry, i'm having tremendous amounts of fun ...
[22:05]	<DeepB>	i.e now we have on show "Looking for tha very-little-small-damn-lost screw"
[22:06]	<nerochiaro>	it have been proved scientifically that you won't find it as long as you keep searching for it. as soon as you do something else, the screw will appear immediately
[22:07]	<DeepB>	found it, under the laptop
[22:10]	<JoshMalone>	heheh
[22:29]	<DeepB>	humm.. i managed to make it work
[22:30]	<DeepB>	but only when the last thing plugged is the battery
[22:31]	<nerochiaro>	work completely ?
[22:32]	<DeepB>	yep, with that very annoying issue, as the backpack has to be opened all the time
[22:32]	<nerochiaro>	not really much useful, i agree
[22:33]	<DeepB>	if i turn the N off (Pressing play) it still thinks its power cord is plugged
[22:33]	<DeepB>	and it's not
[22:33]	<nerochiaro>	now, it would be interesting to understand why it does believe that way
[22:34]	<DeepB>	remove the brain, and place it back, (or UP+Play) and it won't work again
[22:35]	<JoshMalone>	failed DC input jack?
[22:35]	<nerochiaro>	you are already much farther in doing that kind of investigative work that i would have ever care to go. if it were me, i would probably have waited the new unit to arrive, feeling depressed all the time
[22:36]	<DeepB>	JoshMalone: the jack is OK
[22:37]	* nerochiaro  needs a shower. -later
[22:40]	<DeepB>	now i just need to 'mechanize' the plastic case and provide it with a very huge on-off switch
[22:40]	<DeepB>	like this
[22:40]	<DeepB>	www.positiveoffset.com