Log from #neuros IRC channel

apple just blocked clients not using version 4.7 of the protocol, and his update just supports the new version. anyway, however i look at all this itunes bs, it's all lame.

[05:38]

yeah...didn't catch that.

[05:40]

iTunes is really lame. For that matter, almost any "legal" download site is lame.

[05:41]

BTW, we need a new definition of "legal".

[05:42]

Because I don't accept the current one...it only makes sense if you're a major record label.

[05:42]

<ShyK>

no need to have a new definition of something perfectly defined.

[05:42]

<ShyK>

"adj. of or pertaining to the law; allowed by law; established by law; according to law; of or pertaining to lawyers or their profession"

[05:44]

night all

[05:45]

<ShyK>

night

[05:52]

<ShyK>

Chawn420: and if you don't accept their terms, simply don't do business with them. people who don't like to download restricted, low quality audio files, just don't. they buy decent unrestricted music by decent artists who don't belong to lame record companies that do business with itunes. or at least, get the same music, only on cd.

[05:54]

<unknown_lamer>

allofmp3.com

[05:54]

<unknown_lamer>

It is perfectly legal under Russian law

[05:54]

<unknown_lamer>

$0.75 for a 128kbps Ogg Vorbis album

[05:54]

<unknown_lamer>

A far cry from what it would cost for the equivalent AAC on iTunes :-)

[05:55]

I don't do business with them. But I am a little concerned at their aggresiveness on this issue.

[05:55]

<Koron>

allofmp3.com is not compensating anyone but themselves

[05:55]

<Koron>

if you are going to steal music...may as well do it without paying some third party

[05:55]

<ShyK>

unknown_lamer: heh, crap quality, but at least not protected

[05:55]

Yeah, that's a good deal...but not a sustainable model for the artists.

[05:55]

<unknown_lamer>

ShyK: iTunes is crap then too

[05:56]

<unknown_lamer>

ShyK: because 128kbps Vorbis sounds better than 128kbps AAC...

[05:56]

<unknown_lamer>

ShyK: But @ allofmp3 you can encode in Vorbis up to 256kbit or something (+ MP3 + AAC + WMA + FLAC even)

[05:56]

<ShyK>

sometimes. but any 128kbps is crap. companies refuse to care.

[05:56]

<unknown_lamer>

Yes.

[05:56]

<unknown_lamer>

I was just using 128kbps as a point of comparison.

[05:57]

ShyK: I meant the laws need to be reconsidered...

[05:58]

<ShyK>

Chawn420: what law?

[05:58]

<unknown_lamer>

ShyK: You can get an album in FLAC for around $5

[05:58]

<unknown_lamer>

ShyK: So lossless and still cheaper than iTunes

[05:58]

<ShyK>

unknown_lamer: nice. where?

[05:58]

Copyright, who controls it, and what the consumers rights are.

[05:58]

<unknown_lamer>

ShyK: allofmp3.com !

[05:59]

<unknown_lamer>

ShyK: On demand encoding :-)

[05:59]

<ShyK>

unknown_lamer: had no idea. nice.

[05:59]

<unknown_lamer>

Yeah

[05:59]

<unknown_lamer>

I usually go for 128kbps Vorbis since I use it to sample new music before I buy the cd

[05:59]

<unknown_lamer>

unknownlamer.org

[05:59]

<ShyK>

Chawn420: the owner controls the copyright. in this case, record companies control it, and they can decide what you may or may not do.

[06:00]

SkyK: I see where you're coming from. If the artist doesn't give control away then there is no problem...

[06:01]

<ShyK>

exactly

[06:01]

I agree.

[06:01]

<unknown_lamer>

Just ignore iTMS and use allofmp3...

[06:02]

If I was wealthy, I'd start the company that made all of it possible.

[06:02]

<unknown_lamer>

Chawn420: change *what*(

[06:02]

<Koron>

if only more artists were like they might be giants

[06:03]

<Koron>

they sell their newer albums online

[06:03]

do they do there own distribution?

[06:03]

<ShyK>

there are many non evil record labels that use old skool audio cds, and charge more or less decent money :). one example: ninja tune.

[06:03]

<Koron>

256kbps mp3 for $9.99 of $11.99 for flac

[06:03]

<unknown_lamer>

Or $12 for a real CD...

[06:03]

<Koron>

but yeah, they do a mix...they have records in stores and sell them online

[06:03]

* unknown_lamer will take the real CD

[06:03]

<Koron>

yeah, up to you

[06:04]

<unknown_lamer>

I like the artowkr and stuff

[06:04]

<Koron>

but at least they give you the choice

[06:04]

<unknown_lamer>

digital things aren't real to me

[06:04]

That's still pretty steep don't you think?

[06:04]

<Koron>

if you don't like the price point then you're just cheap and it's clear it's not the DRM you hate

[06:04]

<unknown_lamer>

Chawn420: allofmp3.clom

[06:04]

<Koron>

it's a free market economy

[06:04]

<unknown_lamer>

.com

[06:04]

<unknown_lamer>

Chawn420: Can't beat a nickle for a song

[06:05]

<Koron>

yes, it's steep, but they are giving you the choice you want; if you don't like the price...complain about the price, but are you saying the government should put in artificial price caps?

[06:05]

unknown_lamer: I have more music than I know what to do with!

[06:05]

Koron: No!

[06:06]

It may be representative of their costs...but it feels like a lot.

[06:06]

I'm thinking a shared infrastructure would make all of this much cheaper...

[06:06]

But someone would have to build it.

[06:06]

and that takes $$.

[06:06]

<ShyK>

shared infrastructure? :)

[06:07]

<Koron>

magnatune.com is a kind of cool site

[06:07]

<Koron>

but most of their stuff is crap

[06:07]

Yeah. A media library where you can buy music, movies, books, etc...

[06:07]

<Koron>

has some decent classical music though

[06:08]

<ShyK>

Chawn420: there are many of those :D

[06:08]

What an example?

[06:08]

* 's

[06:09]

<ShyK>

amazon, tower records...

[06:09]

I'm checking magnatune

[06:11]

Yeah, but can an independent artists go there with their wares and get a fair price on distribution only?

[06:11]

<Koron>

magnatune.com

[06:11]

<Koron>

they are somewhat selective, but you can hardly hold that against them

[06:12]

<Koron>

How the artist makes money:

[06:12]

<Koron>

* 50% of the sale price of each album goes directly to the artist.

[06:12]

<Koron>

* 50% of any commercial sub-licensing (ads, web sites, trade shows, films, etc) goes directly to the artist.

[06:12]

<Koron>

* 50% of merchandise profits goes directly to the artist.

[06:12]

WOW!!

[06:12]

<unknown_lamer>

Only 50% of merch?

[06:12]

I had no idea...

[06:12]

<ShyK>

there are many ways to perform distribution. many companies do only that, distribute music for record labels. a shared infrastructure makes no sense, as it would only monopolize things more. there are many examples of labels that do great exactly because they don't belong to major scumbags like RIAA.

[06:13]

<unknown_lamer>

Usually the label gets 0% of concert and merch sales

[06:13]

<unknown_lamer>

Which is why it doesn't matter that the label gets all of the CD money. It's just a promo tool to get people to go to your shows.

[06:13]

<unknown_lamer>

Being a musician requires one to work ... just like any other job.

[06:13]

<Koron>

well, concerts rake in more money than merchandise at any rate

[06:13]

<unknown_lamer>

Not for small bands

[06:14]

<Koron>

and they are footing a giant bandwidth bill by allowing anyone to download the music to sample

[06:14]

<unknown_lamer>

And a lot of times not for large bands

[06:14]

<unknown_lamer>

I mean ... say you charge a $20 cover (which is quite a bit really, Dream Theater tickets cost that much and they are huge)

[06:14]

<unknown_lamer>

You might see half of that if you are big

[06:14]

<unknown_lamer>

Usually you end up with nothing until you are a known act

[06:15]

<unknown_lamer>

But then you sell tshirts for $15-$20

[06:15]

<Koron>

but...

[06:15]

<Koron>

I am fairly certain that...

[06:15]

<unknown_lamer>

A tshirt costs around $5 with four color screen printing (XL Hanes Beefy-T Black @ 1000 units)

[06:15]

<unknown_lamer>

So $10-$15 profit right there

[06:15]

<Koron>

the merchandise thing is only for things sold through their online store

[06:15]

<Koron>

I don't actually know

[06:15]

<unknown_lamer>

Still, only 50%...

[06:16]

<Koron>

well, when they are handling manufacturing and order fulfillment

[06:16]

<Koron>

suddenly it doesn't look too bad

[06:16]

<unknown_lamer>

Oh, if you are doing *everything* then 50% is ok.

[06:16]

<unknown_lamer>

Assuming that the shirts are resonably priced ($15ish)

[06:16]

Koron: that's a great site! exactly what I was thinking...

[06:18]

SkyK: Did you check out magnatune? That is precisely the model I was talking about.

[06:18]

<ShyK>

don't think for one second that those figures are realistic. they might be for some, but in the real world, artists make -much- less than 50%... and it makes no sense that they make 50% either, nothing wrong about it.

[06:18]

<Koron>

Your contract with us is totally non-exclusive and limited only to the music you send us: you can (and should) keep promoting your music yourself. You can print and sell your own CDs, compete with our web site; even sign with another record label. There is no long-term commitment to send us more music: if you want to part ways, don't send us any more music. We'll retain the right to keep finding money for the music you have sent us (and we'll keep sendi

[06:18]

<unknown_lamer>

ShyK: I have personal experience with this, being in a band and all...

[06:19]

<ShyK>

unknown_lamer: on a small scale (as in really small and local scale) this might be realistic.

[06:19]

"Downloadable albums at a low price: $5 to $18: >>buyer determines the exact price.<<"

[06:19]

<unknown_lamer>

ShyK: tshirts are almost pure profit

[06:19]

<ShyK>

but on less small and medium, it's not

[06:20]

<unknown_lamer>

What makes the band more--

[06:20]

<unknown_lamer>

a $20 concert ticket (most of which goes to the venue) or a $20 tshirt?

[06:20]

<unknown_lamer>

They'll see maybe $10 from the ticket (if they are lucky), $15 from the shirt.

[06:20]

<unknown_lamer>

You sell a lot of shirts.

[06:20]

<unknown_lamer>

it works out even better for the opening band

[06:21]

<unknown_lamer>

Since we usually end up with $0 ... $15 is infinity times better than $0

[06:21]

<ShyK>

i'm sure you know that on a large scale, bands see much less from the ticket :) and as for shirts, when you're big, you can't use a company that gives you 50% to make your shirts, because they can't handle the volume, and won't agree to anyway.

[06:22]

<unknown_lamer>

Huh?

[06:22]

<ShyK>

the larger the volume is, the less you get.

[06:22]

unknown_lamer: i hope they at least give you free drinks! ;-)

[06:22]

<unknown_lamer>

Chawn420: oh yeah...all the free beer you want.

[06:22]

<unknown_lamer>

ShyK: I'm talking concert sales.

[06:22]

<unknown_lamer>

You pay less in volume to get the shirts made.

[06:22]

<unknown_lamer>

And then *YOU* sell them at shows.

[06:23]

<unknown_lamer>

Online, yeah. You're going to see a lot less.

[06:23]

<unknown_lamer>

But when comparing the money made from merch sales at shows to money from ticket sales, merch wins by a ton.

[06:23]

<ShyK>

ah if you mean selling at the concert that's something else yeah

[06:23]

<unknown_lamer>

So we agree :-)

[06:23]

<ShyK>

yeah sorry, didn't notice

[06:24]

<unknown_lamer>

It's ok, I probably buried it in the middle of a dense sentence somewhere.

[06:24]

<unknown_lamer>

And touring beats recorded sales too.

[06:24]

<unknown_lamer>

The labels could be just a bit nicer (like letting the artist own his own recordings...)

[06:24]

<ShyK>

it's probably the overwhelming amount of text, not ordinary here :)

[06:25]

<ShyK>

what band/kind of band do you play in, by the way?

[06:25]

why do you need a label?

[06:25]

i guess that's the only option available if you want to go "big"...?

[06:26]

<unknown_lamer>

Going big doesn't matter

[06:26]

<unknown_lamer>

Who cares if *everyone* knows who you are as long as you can make a living off of music?

[06:26]

<ShyK>

Chawn420: to distribute your material, you need someone. same goes for many fields, not just music. in every field, those who distribute, have their own connections and know how, which one person can't simply gain alone

[06:26]

yeah, I'm not asking *you* personally...

[06:27]

<unknown_lamer>

The key is to play live. A lot.

[06:27]

<unknown_lamer>

Word of mouth is powerful.

[06:27]

<unknown_lamer>

And, at least early on, don't release many recordings.

[06:27]

Yeah...that *is* a lot of work though.

[06:27]

<unknown_lamer>

You want to keep people going to your shows.

[06:27]

<unknown_lamer>

It's a lot of work but it is *rewarding* work.

[06:27]

<unknown_lamer>

You're doing it for yourself and something you love and not for someone else.

[06:27]

awesome...

[06:28]

what kind of band do you play in?

[06:28]

<unknown_lamer>

Death Metal

:-)

<unknown_lamer>

I'm generally not a fan of death metal...but cheers anyway! ;-)

[06:29]

<unknown_lamer>

unknownlamer.org <== live

[06:29]

<unknown_lamer>

the live one is a cover

[06:29]

I have a friend that is though...I'll pass it along.

[06:29]

<unknown_lamer>

I have the entire show. I need to split iut out and clean it up.

[06:29]

<unknown_lamer>

(I bootlegged the entire show)

[06:29]

<unknown_lamer>

Like six bands.

[06:29]

Are you doing this as a living?

[06:30]

<unknown_lamer>

No.

[06:30]

<unknown_lamer>

I'm a starving college student. I don't do anything for a living :-)

[06:30]

:-)

[06:30]

<unknown_lamer>

We're kind of dormant right now since we're all taking between 17 and 21 credits right now.

[06:30]

What do you study?

[06:30]

<unknown_lamer>

Hopefully we can swing through Canada for a couple of weeks during the summer.

[06:30]

<unknown_lamer>

Comp Sci

[06:31]

Cool. I studied Mech. Eng.

[06:31]

<unknown_lamer>

Heh, the guitarist is a mech e major

[06:31]

I help design wide-format printers...

What school?

<unknown_lamer>

<unknown_lamer>

unknownlamer.org <== another song from our album

[06:32]

<unknown_lamer>

unknownlamer.org <== demo song from a stupid metalcore band I was in

[06:32]

<Koron>

what company chawn?

[06:33]

Encad...no jeers please. ;-)

[06:33]

<Koron>

I work for a trade show company back home during the summers

[06:33]

I guess I shouldn't get too specific with this screen name... ;-)

[06:33]

<Koron>

not sure who makes our printer

[06:33]

Freeman??

[06:34]

Freeman Decorating does trade shows...they're our biggest customer.

[06:34]

<Koron>

it is a fairly small company

[06:34]

If it's a "NovaJet", it's an Encad.

[06:34]

<Koron>

based out of a town of ~35,000

[06:34]

not freeman then...they are nationwide.

[06:34]

<Koron>

yeah

[06:35]

what state?

[06:35]

<Koron>

virginia

[06:35]

cool. i'm in san diego.

[06:36]

it's raining right now...so you can't give me crap about the good weather. ;-)

[06:36]

<ShyK>

rain is good :)

[06:36]

<ShyK>

you have good weather!

[06:37]

SkyK: I just don't see the need for behemouth record labels...they're a drain on the system.

[06:38]

Normally, yes, we've had more than 25 inches of rain since october (not positive on that #).

[06:38]

the three years before that, we probably had the same total.

[06:38]

<ShyK>

well it's not about need, it's part of reality :), and sure, behemoth things can be very bad, in the music field people see and feel it well

[06:39]

define "reality"... ;-)

[06:39]

sorry...I gotta chow.

[06:39]

<ShyK>

n. state of being real; real thing or fact; actuality

[06:39]

l8r

[06:39]

<ShyK>

cy4

[06:39]

bastard. ;-)

[16:02]

crap - my X cursor has disappeared

[19:54]

<JoeBorn> Bruno, how confident are you that audio applications would not be a horsepower issue?

[19:54]

For example, It's been implied that the portal player chips are not capable of mp3 encoding for example.

[19:54]

<Yono> I believe the newer ones can

[19:54]

<Bruno> On which platform? MP3 encoding requires significantly more MIPS than decoding. If, of course, you consider same quality encoding as decoding. I believe that the best possible results would come from a general purpose DSP.

[19:54]

<marek> Audio apps need horsepower if there's realtime audio effects that you'd like to use. \[*Bruno agrees*\]

[19:54]

<Bruno> However, all platforms mentioned have devices that are capable of high end audio. The tradeoff is not capability, as it used to be a few years back. The tradeoff is easy to obtain SW modules, how well these fit the architecture, ability to directly drive the required peripherals, proficiency of power management, and so forth. Don't forget: tool chain and RTOS support.

[19:54]

<marek> Bruno: all sounds like Linux to me :) Lots of reusable codebase for audio, lots of very capable developers that might be interested in developing...

[19:55]

I hope they don't stick with DSP... :(

[19:55]

that would make me very sad

[19:55]

course - they gotta do what the gotta do

[22:12]

Is ARM a brand or a processor type? Or both?

[22:12]

* chreekat finds www.arm.com

[22:12]

<DeepB>

it's a processor architecture

[22:12]

<Yono>

both I think

[22:13]

<DeepB>

check the wikipedia

[22:13]

<DeepB>

it should be there

it's an acrh type

arch, rahter

rather

<Neo> Woah.. I know about ARM </Neo>

[22:15]

<DeepB>

chreekat: :)

[22:15]

ownder by ARM, LTD (Advanced Risc Machine)

[22:15]

Wikipedia is good

[22:18]

everybody do the bot dance :)

[22:18]

* JoshMalone sings "You put your log bot in - you take your logbot out..."

[22:19]

knife goes in, guts come out

[22:19]

I got a Thinkpad today! very happy

[22:19]

lol

[22:20]

cool - I got my new laptop Monday :)

[22:21]

Successfully resized ntfs, updated windows/Norton.. still need to install Firefox, Windows Startup Thingy (www.windowsstartup.com Adaware, Spybot, and, of coures, Linux

[22:22]

Unfortunately I'm sick as a dop

[22:22]

g

[22:22]

<DeepB>

all of them could be solved by the latter, actually

[22:22]

Yeah, except for Diablo II and LabVIEW

[22:22]

<Koron>

hm, never seen that startup inpector program before

[22:23]

<Koron>

looks cool

[22:23]

<Koron>

like msconfig but better

[22:23]

Koron: I recommend it from personal experience

[22:23]

<DeepB>

is it better than StartupCPL + pserv.cpl?

[22:23]

WineX can handle D2, and LabVIEW has Linux versions, but there are two problems

[22:24]

WineX has never worked for me

[22:24]

The version of LabVIEW I have available to me (for Windows) costs more than mylaptop

[22:24]

heheh

[22:25]

I just wiped windows completely from mine

[22:25]

I haven't had Windows in like 2 years. :)

[22:25]

(course - it was already un-bootable from just the OEM setup stuff)

[22:25]

And now, finally, I have a legit copy, so I figured I'd hang on to it

[22:26]

<DeepB>

can you get a refund for an unused OEM OS?

[22:26]

<Koron>

pretty sure not

[22:26]

I remember hearing rumblings about that on /. a long time ago. I don't think so.

[22:26]

maybe - if I spent hours of my time persuing it

[22:27]

It depends on the supplier, I suppose, but most of them have special deals with Windows

[22:27]

Deals, I'm sure, that mandate including Windows

[22:27]

yeah - the $30 bucks you might get after 2 months of complaining and letter writing, etc. just isn't worth my time

[22:27]

(sad)

[22:28]

M$ will overcharge you for the OEM licenses if you ship anything other than windows

[22:28]

they won't give you the discounts they give everybody else

[22:29]

I can't believe the US gov't broke up AT&T but isn't doing shite about M$

[22:29]

</rant>

[22:29]

<DeepB>

mono-mono-monopoly

[22:29]

lol - yeah

[22:29]

<Koron>

with john ashcroft as attorney general, what do you expect?

[22:30]

mono-mono-dotNet

[22:30]

<DeepB>

Koron: is that the guy defeated by a death man at the polls?

[22:30]

manah-manah (de deeeee de de dit)

[22:30]

<Koron>

yes it is

[22:31]

I need to get a "Designed for Linux" sticker now, e.g.www.domestickers.com

[22:32]

<DeepB>

great guy, he has guts, if i were under his skin i'd be totally depressed after that

[22:32]

well - my laptop is def NOT built for linux

[22:32]

If I had a laptop, it would be built for Plan-9

[22:32]

never tried p9

[22:33]

<DeepB>

of course, clear signs of dissaproval have never stopped morons from reaching their goals, but that's another story

[22:33]

<DeepB>

JoshMalone: what's wrong with it?

[22:34]

well - the video hardware is wacky and the WLAN is still not working for me - even with ndiswrapper

[22:35]

:-/

[22:35]

<DeepB>

do you use WEP, WPA or any kind of crypto stuff or secure handshaking protocols?

[22:35]

wlan is the only thing taht worries me

[22:35]

Knoppix detected everything else flawlessly

[22:36]

<Koron>

bleh, I wish UPS would deliver stuff by 5:00PM more regularly

[22:36]

I use wep - but I have problems even with non-wep

[22:36]

UPS gets to my place about 10am. It's nice.

[22:36]

<Koron>

I do 2 day shipping and don't get it until the end of the second day

[22:36]

<Koron>

bah

[22:38]

<DeepB>

JoshMalone: k, i had to add CRC and crypto modules for the custom kernel in order to have the ipw2200 WEP stuff working on mine

[22:38]

<DeepB>

i took me a while to realize that

[22:38]

<DeepB>

*it

[22:38]

well - I'm not even that far yet :(

[22:40]

can't wait for demovibes4! 3 rox

[22:40]

<DeepB>

is it a Rt2400?

[22:41]

ack - wrong channel

[22:41]

rt2500, I think, in mine

[22:41]

may it is 2400 - that might be my problem

[22:41]

<DeepB>

tried this? rt2x00.serialmonkey.com

[22:42]

the wiki said the official 2500 sources are unstable

[22:47]