Log from #neuros IRC channel

<jbn-o>

Anyone know of any WAV or FLAC file samples recorded with the Neuros? I'm looking for a simple way for people at my radio station to record at line level straight to a WAV file (44.1kHZ stereo). Preferably push one button and you're recording.

[05:40]

jbn-o: you still there?

[05:41]

I've recorded wav 44.1 by pressing one button on the neuros.

[05:41]

I haven't tested the quality too much though...

[05:43]

(recorded from stereo line out from my receiver)

[05:54]

<jbn-o>

Chawn420: I'm here

[05:56]

<jbn-o>

Chawn420: Great -- did the Neuros accurately record the signal you were trying to record? I've got a GNU/Linux machine, I own no Microsoft Windows machines. Will the Neuros be seen by my OS as a mass storage device? Or do I need some kind of special software to get the WAV file from the Neuros into my computer?

[05:57]

<jbn-o>

Can you control the gain? Sorry to ask all of these questions, but the distributed documentation for the Neuros is not clear on these points and I don't know anyone who has one (nor do I know where to go see one in person) so I have no way to play with one on my own.

[06:15]

jbn-o: yes and yes.

[06:16]

I run W2K professional, but I know you can mount it in linux.

[06:16]

There are people on here that can help you if you have any troubles.

[06:16]

You also need to download one of the database managers if you want to be able to use ID3 tags on the neuros.

[06:18]

(actually, that's the only option avaible atm for the "garbage" branch of open source firmware)

[06:19]

nerochiaro is working to add a file browser off of that branch though.

[06:20]

<iswm>

jbn-o, yeah, the neuros works fine with linux. It doesn't record as flac (yet), but you can record as wav or mp3 with just a push of a button, and you can control the gain.

[06:20]

and there is gain control on the "recording mode" interface.

[06:22]

not sure what the adjustment range.

[06:22]

*is.

[06:23]

<iswm>

-12/+12 I believe

[06:24]

iswm, I think you're right.

[06:24]

iswm: i remember someone saying it wasn't a "true" line-in because it goes through the DSP.

[06:25]

<iswm>

Still works good in my experience though.

[06:26]

<iswm>

I can get some pretty good recordings by feeding my mixer into it.

[06:26]

do you record to wav?

[06:27]

<jbn-o>

It's probably fine for my purposes. We're just looking for an easy way to record some people's shows so we can encode them to FLAC, Ogg Vorbis, and Speex for distribution online.

[06:27]

I've mainly recorded to MP3 from the radio--AM, so quality wasn't a problem.

[06:27]

<iswm>

Nah, I record all my stuff as 192kbps mp3

[06:29]

for AM i get away with 64kbps and it's enough.

[06:30]

<jbn-o>

Are there any firmware changes to record to FLAC?

[06:31]

<iswm>

Not yet, there has been lots of talk about it lately though.

[06:31]

<jbn-o>

That would be nice, particularly on the big Neuros devices. Has anyone swapped the HD in a Neuros for a larger one (logically larger, I mean)?

[06:31]

<jbn-o>

I imagine FLAC's developer would be helpful if anyone were seriously pursuing it.

[06:34]

Josh?

[06:36]

<jbn-o>

Yes, but I forgot his last name.

[06:36]

Josh Coalson has been talking to people at neuros and "in the community" about helping out.

[06:37]

He's been working on converting the library from 64 bit to 32 bit for the neuros.

[06:39]

as I understand (i'm no expert), it's not difficult, just a lot of work.

[06:40]

i think there's other work that needs to be done as well, but it's not as time consuming.

[07:01]

jbn-o: how much larger of a HD do you want, you can buy them up to 80gb

[07:10]

<jbn-o>

SmrtJustin: Ideally, I'd record to a device that has so much space on it it's essentially unlimited. But my second choice would be something that could compare to what I can get in a laptop these days. I would need to know how much the (2.5" form factor, is it?) HDs cost before I could say what I'd get.

[07:10]

yeah, there's a guy that has directions for that on his website.

[07:11]

*for changing HDs, batteries, and connecting the RF jack to the antenna (I think)

[07:11]

<jbn-o>

80GB sounds okay. My main fear is that I would not be able to press stop then press record again (to start recording on a new file) either because the Neuros would ask me for some information in between key presses or it would take so long to complete its bookkeeping that I'd miss a lot of material in between key presses.

[07:12]

it wont ask for info, it saves by date I believe

[07:12]

<jbn-o>

Chawn420: Great, I'll search for that.

[07:12]

it does take a little bit for it to save and stuff

[07:12]

track by track recording would be tough, because it takes a while to "finish" the file.

[07:12]

its cool4u2view or something like that is the site

[07:13]

it takes roughly 15-20 secs. to save a 30 minute low-grade MP3.

[07:13]

longer for a bigger file, I believe.

[07:13]

<jbn-o>

I would like to download one file via USB while it's recording another file. Can it do these two things at the same time?

[07:14]

no, it cannot

[07:14]

Jbn-o: no. if connected to USB it goes into "sync mode".

[07:14]

<jbn-o>

I'd only record to WAV, so perhaps the delay there has something to do with encoding MP3s? Or is the 15-20 second delay constant regarless of the kind of file you're recording?

[07:14]

I've never done mp3....

[07:14]

it still takes a while to finish wav...

[07:14]

www.cool4u2view.com

[07:14]

<jbn-o>

Chawn420: thanks!

"do it yourself"

np.

glad to payback to the community a bit ;-)

[07:15]

everyone's been great.

[07:15]

<jbn-o>

bummer -- then I'd have to just hope nothing important happens in the first 15-20 seconds of someone's show. It probably won't, intro tunes can be put in during post.

[07:15]

I should try the line-in sometime on mine...

[07:16]

you could also break the file up afterwards, no?

[07:16]

yeah, that may be a better solution

[07:17]

<jbn-o>

Chawn420: I could, but I was thinking (before I learned you can't transfer and record simultaneously) that I could transfer and then delete one file while recording another. This would have prevented me from running out of room during long shows.

[07:18]

I don't think that should be a problem with 40 GB!

[07:19]

yeah, take a CD for example, an hour of music is about 700mb

[07:19]

you should be able to get at least 80 hours on there even if it's uncompressed.

[07:19]

so your talking like 45hrs of music there...

[07:20]

yeah, sorry my 45 is probably really low

[07:20]

just sync it once a day....

[07:20]

80s probably a little high... ;-)

[07:20]

<jbn-o>

*I* would not have that problem, but some of the users would not sync it for a week because they would not be the ones doing the sync work. They'd treat it like it was an infinite storage device, like they do our desktop computer on which we record audio now.

[07:21]

according to my irssi's calc, I'm getting 57hrs of music...

[07:21]

<jbn-o>

The major attraction for using this device (as opposed to continuing to use our desktop machine) is simplicity of interface, and no crashing because someone is playing a video game on the same machine and the game crashes the OS.

[07:21]

if you have the cash, you could get multiple backpacks. that's what it's designed for anyway ;-)

[07:21]

but thats assuming 1hr = 700mb

[07:22]

<jbn-o>

So, you're right, that's just a maintenance problem for me, which is hardly a big deal.

[07:22]

I dont know of any other device thats going to do what you want any better than a neuros.

[07:22]

<jbn-o>

What is the advantage to getting more RAM on the Neuros? 128MB versus 256MB?

[07:23]

according to GarBage, I believe it may be able to cache more....

[07:23]

SmrtJustin: my 700GB CDR says "80 mins", so 1.33 hrs.

[07:23]

Chawn420: oh, thats true, what was i thinking?

[07:23]

yeah, but caching shouldn't be an issue for your application. assuming it'll be plugged into AC.

[07:24]

<jbn-o>

Another thing to keep in mind (again, for *me* to keep in mind) is a proposed FCC rule that radio stations record a week's worth of broadcast so people can come by, request a segment of it, and use it to get the FCC to fine us for swearing on the air. I'm not kidding.

[07:24]

<jbn-o>

Chawn420: yes, it'll be plugged into AC

[07:24]

<jbn-o>

All the time on AC, actually.

[07:24]

so 75.81 hrs of music on a 40GB

[07:24]

it's more for conserving batter-power or if you want to use the Flash Mem for a solid state player.

[07:24]

;-)

[07:25]

F the FCC!

[07:25]

The only bad points of the neuros: big, and eats its battery.

[07:25]

<jbn-o>

ha!

[07:25]

other than that, its great.

[07:25]

it's actually not "RAM"...it's like "onboard memory" for your digital camera.

[07:26]

<jbn-o>

I'd love to F the FCC but they hand out the licenses.

[07:26]

With the neuros you can broadcast to your immediate neighborhood. ;-)

[07:27]

especially with the RF jack connected and a simple homemade antenna.

[07:27]

if your immediate neighborhood includes stuff within 12in. of you.

[07:27]

better range, I mean.

[07:27]

<jbn-o>

SmrtJustin: Sounds like a good deal for me.

[07:27]

jbn-o: sounds like it do pretty much what you want.

[07:27]

<jbn-o>

That feature I don't think I'd use, but it would be nice to take a road trip with it and not have to install new hardware in my car.

[07:28]

depends on your receiver. I've got 20 feet with no headphones plugged in---and no RF.

[07:28]

but, I've had the "6 in." problem, as well.

[07:28]

do you have yours soldered to the internal antenna?

[07:29]

no, I haven't been that adventurous yet. i think I have the skills though...

[07:29]

do you have a N2?

[07:29]

N2: yup.

[07:30]

if you do it, let me know how it works out.

[07:30]

Ok. But I've heard it helps a good amount.

[07:31]

But again, I think the FM receiver has a lot to do with how good it works.

[07:32]

jbn-o: it's also great to go to a friend's house with it broadcasting from your pocket.

[07:32]

"Hey, have you heard of that new independent station, WKUL 87.5?" ;-)

[07:33]

<jbn-o>

heheheh

[07:33]

other party: "Wow, that's pretty good music!"

[07:33]

Then you pull it out and get some pretty good reactions. ;-)

[07:34]

<iswm>

Heh, they don't notice the big bludge in your pocket?

[07:34]

yeah...

[07:34]

<jbn-o>

Is that a Neuros in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?

[07:34]

hehe...I was going to make a crack abot that...but you beat me to it!

[07:34]

:-)

[07:35]

It's actually not *that* big...just compared to the fascist iPod.

[07:35]

well I think I'm gonna call it a night

[07:35]

for what it does, it's pretty damn small.

[07:35]

good night all

[07:35]

cheers.

[07:35]

<iswm>

The brain itself is tiny.

[07:36]

<iswm>

The backpack is where the size comes from.

[07:36]

speaking of which, I need to go have a shot of Don Dueno!

[07:36]

They could have done a better job shrinking the battery only backpack...

[07:37]

<jbn-o>

A friend of mine had a Palm Pilot (it was quite thin) in his coat pocket and forgot about it. He got in his car, closed the door and noticed that the coat was so long it caught in the door well. When he opened the door, he remembered where his Palm Pilot was and saw it in his coat pocket in a dozen pieces.

[07:37]

for the flash player.

[07:37]

that blows.

[07:37]

jbn-o: hope to see you around here again.

[07:37]

<jbn-o>

Is the Neuros a mass storage device? Like a USB hard drive? I forgot if I asked you this before.

[07:37]

you all have a good nite.

[07:37]

<iswm>

jbn-o, sure is

[07:37]

<jbn-o>

Chawn420: I'll come back soon, thanks for all the help!

[07:38]

<jbn-o>

iswm: great!

[07:38]

Yes...exactly like an external HD.

[07:38]

<jbn-o>

have a good night

[07:38]

l8r.

[07:38]

<iswm>

Night, Chawn420

night iswm.

<DeepB>

Oh why oh why does IE have to suck soooo bad?

[17:55]

<DeepB>

gernika: www.quirksmode.org

[18:01]

hello everyone

[18:03]

<DeepB>

hi there

[18:03]

<Bruno>

Hi DeepB

[18:03]

<Bruno>

Hi Joe

[18:03]

Hi Bruno

[18:04]

well, I'd like to talk about the uclinux port and all the things associated with that.

[18:04]

so I guess we can start with the hardware

[18:05]

our plan on this is pretty simple, we want to introduce a simple board as an accessory that will give the recorder serial and ethernet

[18:05]

the idea of the whole project is largely to set the development platform for all the future projects.

[18:06]

the thinking is that regardless of what exact HW platform we use, we'll use a lot of the same applications

[18:07]

so if we can start by setting up a development environment with the recorder, it will be useful for the PVP product as well as future generations of both of those as well as an N3

[18:08]

so that's the idea anyway. Thoughts?

[18:09]

good to see such huge enthusiasm :)

[18:09]

well Bruno, what do you think?

[18:09]

<Bruno>

I think that we can have a daughterboard that gives serial and Ethernet

[18:09]

<Bruno>

It would be hand soldered into the motherboard,

[18:10]

<Bruno>

either by the end user

[18:10]

and what will the recorder be capable of doing once you have that and uclinux on the machine?

[18:10]

<Bruno>

or by a Neuros tech.

[18:10]

<DeepB>

what about riser slots?

[18:10]

<Bruno>

well, you can now develop Linux code.

[18:10]

my understanding is that it won't be capable of playing video and running linux at the same time right?

[18:11]

<Bruno>

There are no riser slots in the current hardware.

[18:11]

could it run an audio player and stream audio from the network?

[18:11]

<Bruno>

It will NOT be able to run its original software under Linux.

[18:11]

<Bruno>

Yes, by all means.

[18:11]

while it is possible to play video on top of Linux

[18:12]

<Bruno>

Also, the DSP in the DSC-25 is somewhat "open", so any DSP-savvy programmer can make that machine zip

[18:12]

Bruno: what do you mean "somewhat open?"

[18:12]

<Bruno>

Sure it is possible for Linux to play video.

[18:12]

<Bruno>

However:

[18:13]

<Bruno>

The ARM CPU is not nearly powerful enough for that, even at small resolutions

[18:13]

<Bruno>

and the DSP isn't either.

[18:13]

<Bruno>

What makes it possible with the "normal" firmware is that

[18:13]

well, while you are answering that question, I'll ask another, what about this gcc port for the DSP? what are your thoughts on that?

[18:13]

<Bruno>

there are some HW acceleration blocks connected to the DSP

[18:13]

<Bruno>

and TI will not open these up. Even if they did

[18:14]

<Bruno>

they are incredibly hard to program.

[18:14]

<Bruno>

I have not heard of a gcc port for the C54. However, I haven't looked for one either.

[18:14]

[hard] does not exist in OS community. ;-)

[18:15]

it seems clear one doesn't exist.

[18:15]

<DeepB>

believe michael, it does ;)

[18:15]

my question is how hard would it be to create one?

[18:16]

<Bruno>

Somebody should take a look at what Archos made available and dissect it.

[18:16]

<Bruno>

Maybe there are tools for the DSP in the distribution.

[18:16]

how open is the DSP side of the DM270?

[18:16]

<Bruno>

Anybody familiar with the Archos OS distribution?

[18:17]

<Bruno>

Anyway,

[18:17]

<DeepB>

i've read some rockboxx code, that's all

[18:17]

<Bruno>

I think that once you have Linux up on the recorder

[18:17]

<Bruno>

it is no longer "the Recorder", but a Linux machine

[18:17]

<Bruno>

with a nice DSP andA/V I/O.

[18:18]

<Bruno>

It is possible to turn it into an embedded browser,

[18:18]

<Bruno>

audio editing,

[18:18]

That's the idea, certainly.

[18:18]

<Bruno>

network box of any kind,

[18:18]

<Bruno>

etc.

[18:19]

<DeepB>

much like my nice mipsel based WRT54G router, but with A/V

[18:19]

so we port linux to it, but how does it connect to the DSP side, do you think the archos port of uclinux provides soem interfaces to the DSP?

[18:19]

<Bruno>

Also, we could make available S/PDIF I/O in the same card as the Ethernet. Any interest in it?

[18:20]

how much would that cost?

[18:20]

<Bruno>

This way you could transfer uncompressed audio in and out of the box.

[18:20]

One way to do it is wrap -all- DSP functionality to .so

[18:21]

I think that would be awesome, we could replace our audiotron here in the office

[18:21]

<Bruno>

Depends on the level of functionality needed. I'd say $3 - $30, with a reasonable solution at about $8 for the S/PDIF only.

[18:21]

<Bruno>

Of course you have to add the other stuff - Ethernet, serial, jacks, etc.

[18:21]

but with that, you may the flexibility of using Linux to do your own stuff

[18:21]

$3-30 for the BOM for the whole board including S/PDIF?

[18:22]

<Bruno>

No, S/PDIF only.

[18:22]

<Bruno>

Add PCB, Ethernet chip, etc.

[18:22]

<Bruno>

I'd say that if we stay reasonable and get the quality up

[18:23]

<Bruno>

using design expertise instead of parts cost

[18:23]

<Bruno>

we should have the whole board at around $18-22

[18:23]

what does that include?

[18:23]

<Bruno>

for volume of a few k.

[18:24]

<Bruno>

It includes S/PDIF out, S/PDIF in (I am not very educated on cost here, so I guessed it is about the same as output)

[18:24]

<Bruno>

Ethernet 10/100, serial port using DB-9

[18:24]

I can't imagine S/PDIF in would be important.

[18:25]

<DeepB>

i'd be all for trying to set up an standard N-Xpanded interface for gadget additions such as usb storage, multi audio I/O ports, S/PDIF I/O or any other further enhancements/additions

[18:25]

<Bruno>

I don't know. I just threw it in just for the sake of completeness.

[18:26]

<Bruno>

USB storage is pretty complex.

[18:26]

<Bruno>

It is easy to get USB functionality in the hardware, but

[18:26]

<Bruno>

we would definitelly need to recruit the OS community for the driver

[18:27]

<Bruno>

I am also not sure if TI would open up the USB

[18:27]

<Bruno>

hardware. If not, the it is plain not possibnle.

[18:27]

<Bruno>

Anybody with USB driver experience here?

[18:27]

<DeepB>

www.ladyada.net

[18:28]

mgao: what does "wrap all DSP functionality to .so?" mean?

[18:28]

I'm really interested in understanding how we abstract out the DSP and HW stuff because obviously that's been a big impediment with the current Neuros

[18:29]

Supply all DSP functions in library format, while provide a home-brew .so lib loader on the ARM side.

[18:29]

just logged in and trying to read the logs, but since we're talking about USB, i want to make sure you know that beside USB storage it would be great if the device could also act as USB Host (and i know for sure i am not the only one wanting that feature)

[18:29]

nero: supporting a HD directly would be a lot easier, but not as interesting?

[18:30]

<Bruno>

Nerochiaro: I agree it would be nice. It would also be cheap.

[18:30]

that way, we do not need the gcc tool chain support for DSP part...

[18:30]

<Bruno>

Any USB device driver developers here?

[18:30]

Just a thought, any comments?

[18:30]

JoeBorn: the reason many want it is to be able to read pictures from their usb-storage compilant cameras

[18:31]

<Bruno>

Michael: It is always a possibility. That is what libraries are for.

[18:31]

but all the cameras have removable SD or CF cards anyway, right?

[18:31]

mgao09: the idea of having modules loaded at run time is great

[18:31]

<Bruno>

Yes. TI has a framework for it that may be publicaly available.

[18:32]

mgao09: (unless i misunderstood what you were asking comments for)

[18:32]

I am not sure how hard to write the "home-brew" loader, I assume it is not too hard ;-)

[18:32]

<Bruno>

It depends on what the functionality requirements are.

[18:33]

JoeBorn: yes, they have removable cards, but to read them you need a pc, no ? w/ usb host you can use the neuros device as portable buffer storage when you're out on long shooting trips (e.g. vacations)

[18:33]

<Bruno>

If you need to dynamically link libraries and keep global symbol tables and so forth you may be pushing it.

[18:33]

<Bruno>

But if all you do is load some code and jump to it, then it is much easier.

[18:33]

mgao09: doesn't the current Neuros 2 have some run-time library loading capability already ? (for codecs, if i'm not mistaken)

[18:33]

<Bruno>

And load code may be really all we need.

[18:33]

nero: sorry, I was confused I thought you were talking about the recorder.

[18:34]

nero, sort of, but not the same thing as I am talking about here,

[18:34]

Bruno covered my thought actually...

[18:34]

JoeBorn: i don't know, aren't we talking about a generic board that can be used as foundation/expansion for future Neuros devices of any kind ?

[18:35]

<Bruno>

Yes.

[18:35]

We can start from the simple loader idea...

[18:35]

<Bruno>

It has become flexible, so the discussion has become

[18:35]

<Bruno>

less focused as well.

[18:35]

<Bruno>

I believe that once a starting point becomes available

[18:35]

nero: not exactly.

[18:35]

<Bruno>

there will be plenty of interest and plenty of branches

[18:36]

<Bruno>

from the main idea.

[18:36]

<Bruno>

Some people will contribute low level stuff

[18:36]

<Bruno>

most likely Neuros or other bit-freaks like me,

[18:36]

nero: I guess what I meant by platform was really more the software "platform"

[18:36]

<Bruno>

and some will develop apps and high level stuff.

[18:36]

I doubt that this HW design that we'd do for the recorder would be of much use for future models.

[18:37]

<Bruno>

The foundations will always be the same.

[18:37]

Bruno: right, that's the idea.

[18:37]

<Bruno>

If you have Ethernet on the Recorder and Ethernet on the, say 442,

[18:37]

<Bruno>

then all that changes is the device driver.

[18:38]

now nero does bring up a question which is something we can talk about next time is this idea of a "unversal bus" that we could use on various products.

[18:38]

<Bruno>

All application layers, and even the "middle" (stack in the OS, etc) remains the same.

[18:38]

I would really like to choose an intereface that we can use across product lines going forward that would tie the HW and SW together.

[18:39]

<Bruno>

I have seen many attempts at "universal busses" come and go.

[18:39]

well, I really don't want to invent something new, I'd really like to pick something available if at all possible.

[18:39]

<Bruno>

One needs to be really careful when planning such "universal" things.

[18:39]

that's your job :)

[18:40]

help us choose wisely

[18:40]

<Bruno>

The only Universal bus that I know that is reasonably (undesrcore that) successful is USB.

[18:40]

but anyway, I believe that's a subject for the next discussion.

[18:40]

<Bruno>

It is in its 3rd generation in 8 years or so, with tens of thousands of engineers working on it.

[18:41]

let's try to finish up something on the linux on the recorder side.

[18:41]

<Bruno>

Ok

[18:41]

<Bruno>

How about:

[18:41]

<Bruno>

Ethernet, 1 serial port, S/PDIF output for high end audio?

[18:42]

<Bruno>

Question: Should we have the S/PDIF at all?

[18:42]

yes.

[18:42]

<Bruno>

(chances are you will be able to use the DSP, one way or another)

[18:42]

<Bruno>

Next question: Should we provide a USB connector?

[18:43]

do we need one if we have serial?

[18:43]

can we use the USB that comes with the device?

[18:43]

<Bruno>

(Even though there is no USB device driver SW?)

[18:43]

<Bruno>

That is the one we are working on it.

[18:44]

what would the USB for? USB host?

[18:45]

<Bruno>

It is cheap, but it requires SW development

[18:45]

SW for master, or for slave?

[18:45]

<Bruno>

I believe that the HW supports host, target and OTG.

[18:45]

i fear i'm not competent enough to be putting any opinion on this hardware talk at all, but just one final note on USB: no more proprietary connectors. please.

[18:45]

<Bruno>

If memory serves me well, Linux 2.6 does not have a Target stack.

[18:46]

<Bruno>

nerochiaro: Got it.

[18:46]

nero: don't worry about that.

[18:47]

thank you

[18:47]

<Bruno>