Log from #neuros IRC channel

from what I understand there's no encryption breaking, is there?

<Eagle_Fire>

because there will be some decryption involved

<Eagle_Fire>

.tivo format requires a directshow filter to decode

<Eagle_Fire>

ostensibly that asks you for your viewing password

how does that work?

<Eagle_Fire>

just another link in a directshow filter graph

sorry, I don' know directshow, what does that mean?

<Eagle_Fire>

just a DLL that gets loaded in to interpret the video content

<Eagle_Fire>

windows has this architecture whereby any media can be played in any way by loading a sequence of these directshow filters

<Eagle_Fire>

and each one can execute any code it wants

<Eagle_Fire>

so the tivo will ask for the viewing password, and blacklist some programs

<Eagle_Fire>

like tmpgenc

ok, so you enter the password and what happens then?

<Eagle_Fire>

the filter initializes as well as the MPEG2 decoders and whatever audio

<Eagle_Fire>

and it plays through directshow just like anything else

and it plays the video and audio.

<Eagle_Fire>

yes

how does it then get converted to an avi file then?

<Eagle_Fire>

to transcode it you'd do the same thing but instead of the "output to screen" filter you put a "encode to xvid" filter

<Eagle_Fire>

and audio thing for mp3 encoding

<Eagle_Fire>

and then a final "output to file" filter

[14:20]

<Eagle_Fire>

it's all a gross oversimplification; i don't even understand all the details yet

[14:20]

and that "output to file" filter is what TVharmony does?

[14:21]

<Eagle_Fire>

from what i can tell, yeah

<Eagle_Fire>

i ordered the tivo yesterday

<Eagle_Fire>

should be here in a week, just like my new 442

that's good.

<Eagle_Fire>

yes, very good

[14:24]

<Eagle_Fire>

meanwhile i get to design my ipod-killer interface :)

[14:24]

I'm looking on the net, there was a case about this kind of thing

[14:25]

<Eagle_Fire>

they probably wouldn't mind if we found a way to bind it to the player

[14:27]

well, that's probably pretty easy, there's a divx vod

[14:27]

some kind of drm thing

[14:28]

<Eagle_Fire>

well can we encode to vod

[14:29]

my vague understanding is that Tivo is now doing some kind of watermarking instead of DRM

[14:29]

which I think makes a lot of sense.

[14:30]

but I obviously haven't done a lot of research on it.

[14:30]

I haven't heard any news of the MPAA contacting TVHarmony, so I was kind of assuming it was ok.

[14:32]

<Eagle_Fire>

well it would be tivo firsst

[14:32]

<Eagle_Fire>

they can update their driver to break tvharmony

[14:37]

how would that work?

<Eagle_Fire>

they have a blacklist inside the filter

<Eagle_Fire>

additionally they can run any code they want

<Eagle_Fire>

and if something doesn't feel right it can refuse

in other words, they explicity allow outputing to a stream that can be transcoded?

or at least they don't deny that?

<Eagle_Fire>

without code to figure it out

<Eagle_Fire>

it looks the same to the filter whether you're playing it in a media player

<Eagle_Fire>

or transcoding it to un-drm format

<Eagle_Fire>

(or additionally using Sonic MyDVD, the authorized way to burn to dvd)

[14:41]

<Eagle_Fire>

did you read that tvharmony used to watermark the MAK onto the transcoded video

[14:42]

no. what's the story with that?

<Eagle_Fire>

tvharmony used to watermark the MAK onto the transcoded video

sorry, what's MAK?

<Eagle_Fire>

media access key

<Eagle_Fire>

the unique number used to decrypt the tivo stream

ahh, why did they stop?

[14:44]

<Eagle_Fire>

they now do some invisible marking of the file somehow

[14:44]

that sounds like a good idea.

[14:45]

poking around on the net, its really hard to tell, in fact, it's pretty clear that it hasn't been determined exactly what the boundaries are

[14:45]

There was a case with Realnetworks where real networks protected an audio stream with a single bit.

[14:46]

i.e. no encryption just a bit that said 1=ok to copy to local machine or 0= not ok

[14:46]

a company blew that off saying it's not encryption and the courts seemed to disagree.

<Eagle_Fire>

well that's definitely not encryption

<Eagle_Fire>

but it is a copy protection mechanism

<Eagle_Fire>

and as such protected by the DMCA

<Eagle_Fire>

however, since the tivo driver itself will un-drm the data for you, one can argue that it's not bypassing the copy protection

however, it seems likely that if someone linked up a bunch of scripts that automated the process of burning a cd from an iTunes song and then re-encoding it, it would be a lot easier to say Apple is already allowing this

[14:48]

<Eagle_Fire>

it's asking nicely and it gives it to you because it wants to

[14:48]

Right, I agree with that.

[14:48]

<Eagle_Fire>

however, were it to blacklist my program and i did something underhanded to fool it

[14:49]

<Eagle_Fire>

that may be construed as violating the dmca

[14:49]

I believe that's a reasonable interpretation

[14:49]

but the bottom line is that I doubt there's any case law on this.

[14:50]

so my feeling is that if we play by the TiVo dll's rules and respect the watermark, or secret code, etc

[14:50]

then we are in a pretty strong position.

[14:50]

<Eagle_Fire>

right-o

[14:51]

and we need to make sure that we don't suggest copyright infringement, which was something the supreme court brought up

[14:51]

in grokster

[14:51]

honestly, that's the right thing to do anyway.

[14:52]

if we are hacking together a script make to infringe copyrights, then we're ultimately going to be sued

[14:52]

and deserve to be sued, let's face it.

[14:53]

if we're facilitating time and place shifting from TV content, then we're squarely building on the Sony betamax case

[14:53]

and we're in the moral and legal right.

[14:54]

on a different level, I feel pretty confident that the worst case scenario is that we get a cease and desist letter from the MPAA and we can bail out then

[14:54]

but you should make your own judgement on the whole thing.

[14:54]

<Eagle_Fire>

no, that's when the non-officially-sponsored underground movement goes into effect

[14:56]

well, no one owns open source code, so we don't control it for better or for worse

[14:56]

but we'll either support it or not. We're not going to have a wink wink policy where we officially don't suport it, but iran contra style funnel money to it or something

[14:57]

<Eagle_Fire>

technically it's still under copyright of the author

[14:57]

well, right, but you can't retract the open source code

[14:57]

<Eagle_Fire>

suppose not

[14:58]

<Eagle_Fire>

i think the only case when i can is if there's a gpl violation

[14:58]

well, right you can sue folks for that.

[15:02]

anyway, it's your call, but after this conversation and a little research, I feel fairly comfortable.

[15:05]

<Eagle_Fire>

yeah

[15:05]

how many people do you think visited your site after the digg thing

[15:05]

from alexa, it looks like there was well over a million page views that day.

[15:06]

<Eagle_Fire>

mighta been

[15:06]

<Eagle_Fire>

18000 according to google adsense

[15:08]

18 thousand unique IP addresses?

[15:09]

<Eagle_Fire>

view i think

[15:09]

that's unique pageviews or folks that clicked on ads?

<Eagle_Fire>

view

<Eagle_Fire>

ads didn't work well because google didn't refresh my page

<Eagle_Fire>

so the ads weren't relevant

Right, well do some affiliate stuff, like buy a cheap version2 tivo here

buy a 442 here

<Eagle_Fire>

get free v1agr@!!!

there are professional affiliate folks who do that, who have a lot less value add than you.

<Eagle_Fire>

i suppose

<Eagle_Fire>

then again 442 isn't exactly a finished product is it

<Eagle_Fire>

i'd get more publicity if it were video ipod compatible

[15:12]

true, you could do it with any product you chose.

[15:12]

<Eagle_Fire>

"this writeup concerns itself with the 442, but you should have no trouble getting your video ipod to play these files"

[15:12]

<Eagle_Fire>

though i don't think ipod supports mpeg4-sp

[15:13]

regular mpeg-4 +aac in a .mp4 wrapper is ok.

[15:13]

that's what the recorder creates.

[15:14]

<Eagle_Fire>

not sure how to mp4-wrap using directshow

I would start with the tvharmony on the 442 since you have everything you need and then you can move on to iPod, etc

<Eagle_Fire>

you were misreading the alexa rankings

<Eagle_Fire>

at that digg peak i reached 1.5 people per million people on the internet

<Eagle_Fire>

well if i use tvharmony it won't be much of a hack

<Eagle_Fire>

"how to get your tivo to go on 442"

oic

<Eagle_Fire>

step 1: use tvharmony

<Eagle_Fire>

step 2: enjoy

well, yes and no.

take me for example.

I just don't ahve time to experiment. Setting this thing up has been on my to-do list for months.

<Eagle_Fire>

that's not busy

<Eagle_Fire>

that's lazy

I want step by step, I don't have time to experiment with different xvid, etc settings.

well, lazy or busy, the point is I'll do it when someone produces step by step instructions.

and I'm clearly not the only one in that position

<Eagle_Fire>

alright, so you want me to publish a HOWTO then

right, exactly.

<Eagle_Fire>

i'd rather reinvent the wheel, pretending tvharmony doesn't exist

<Eagle_Fire>

i'd get more cred for that

well, that's your call, but there should at least be some benefit for doing so.

<Eagle_Fire>

more cred, like i said

make it open source or something at least.

<Eagle_Fire>

of course

<Eagle_Fire>

and linux-compatible

<Eagle_Fire>

though that'd be the difficult

<Eagle_Fire>

and potentially dmca-breaching

well, if you make it open source and host it on your box, I imagine you could drive ongoing traffic

and hopefully some money.

my guess is that you could.

<Eagle_Fire>

though hosting costs moneys too

<Eagle_Fire>

tvharmony is not open-source, is it

no it's not

<Eagle_Fire>

yeah, screw that

<Eagle_Fire>

i'll make open-source one

[15:24]

what's the difference between "reach" and "page views" on alexa?

[15:25]

<Eagle_Fire>

not sure

[15:25]

<Eagle_Fire>

reach seems to be more than pageviews

[15:26]

I gathered that much :/

[15:26]

<Eagle_Fire>

it has explanations

[15:26]

<Eagle_Fire>

pages.alexa.com

[15:27]

<Eagle_Fire>

seems to be based on Alexa Toolbar users

[15:27]

which is only for IE

[15:27]

ok, I get the idea.

[15:29]

<Eagle_Fire>

right now i have a USB audio tied to a linux-running OpenWrt router, streaming sweet beats from my laptop over wireless :)

[15:29]

<Eagle_Fire>

it's sweet

[15:31]

very cool, you really are good at this stuff, there's no reason you shouldn't be making money off it.

[15:32]

<Eagle_Fire>

well the reason is that i'm good at some other stuff and making more money off that

[15:32]

some detailed howtos with links to buy all the necessary stuff.

[15:33]

well, maybe but it wouldn't be that hard to write it up and throw some affiliate links on it.

[15:33]

<Eagle_Fire>

i suppose

[15:33]

<Eagle_Fire>

i could also roll a special version of the OpenWrt firmware that makes it a breeze

[15:34]

a little webserver that would allow me to control it via my axim would make it really useful to me.

[15:34]

well, I guess the webserver would be on the laptop actually.

<Eagle_Fire>

the router is capable of webserving an interface

but I want to control the streaming source, look at the media player

queue up music, etc

<Eagle_Fire>

yeah

[15:37]

<Eagle_Fire>

well it's just accessing files from a share on my lappy

[15:37]

<Eagle_Fire>

it's taking care of the playlist management

[15:37]

can you hook an external hd to the acess point?

[15:38]

and the USB audio at the same time?

[15:38]

<Eagle_Fire>

using a hub, sure

[15:38]

<Eagle_Fire>

was debating whether to do that for my car player or wait for the neuros dev board

<Eagle_Fire>

what i'd like is to be able to dock my linux-running 442 to the car

<Eagle_Fire>

and have car-based controls for it

<Eagle_Fire>

using this novel touchpad interface i'm making

<Eagle_Fire>

for eyes-free operation

[15:42]

did you get my pm?

[15:43]

the dev boards are pretty big, let me post some pictures.

[15:44]

<Eagle_Fire>

must have missed it

[15:53]

<Eagle_Fire>

pictures, you say?

[15:54]

yeah, the're not that great though.

[15:57]

<Eagle_Fire>

though i would suppose i already have a good idea of what the FF boards look like?

[15:57]

right, I'd say so.

[16:05]

well, anyway, I need to run, but keep us posted on the TiVo stuff

[16:06]

it goes without saying, it's your call how to approach it, but whatever you do, keep us posted, I'm very interested in what you are doing.

[16:07]

just consider the Tivo a gift from us as a thanks...

[16:40]

<Eagle_Fire>

i suppose i should point out that as of yet i haven't really done much at all for neuros

right, I was expecting you'd say that, but that's valueing the non-engineering contributions at zero

the website that dissected the 442, the contributions here, etc.

<Eagle_Fire>

i suppose

you know, class participation is a part of your grade here :)

[16:46]

besides, we haven't yet given you much to work with.

[18:04]

I'm looking at the dev boards on odna... what is the size according to you all ? 10 inches ?

10x10 ?

10x10 ?

sorry

(i hate when recall history in the wrong terminal window)

[19:21]

<Eagle_Fire>

10x10 ?

[23:10]

it's about 8x10 or something, I don't have them in front of me

[23:11]

they were laid out very loosely with all kinds of room, and not much regard for spatial constrains.

[23:11]

contraints

[23:16]

the next version of the board, which is for the R3 will be less than 50% of the size

[23:16]

probably more like 25% of the size.

[23:16]

<Eagle_Fire>

devices.natetrue.com

[23:17]

the R3 is basically the size of the R2 +1 inch on one side or something like that

[23:18]

how big is it?

[23:18]

the mov file, I mean

[23:19]

<Eagle_Fire>

4mb

I got it now.

you have skills

I'll grant you that

<Eagle_Fire>

:)

[23:21]

that's connected with another serial interface?

[23:21]

<Eagle_Fire>

yeah, the second serial port on the router, the one that's not the console port

would it be possible to connect an ir receiver simultaneously with that display?

<Eagle_Fire>

yeah

<Eagle_Fire>

the serializing controller is just an Atmel microcontroller

<Eagle_Fire>

so it could do many functions

<Eagle_Fire>

(i would replace it with a PIC since i don't have an Atmel programmer)

well, you'll make a fortune eventually (should you so choose). I'm confident of that.

just make it happen before you get married, that's my advice.

<Eagle_Fire>

why's that

well, it's just harder to really sacrifice and find the time once you have a family

[23:26]

and the kind of acomplishments that you're capable of do take sacrifice

[23:26]

<Eagle_Fire>

i suppose that's true

I'd just reccomend that you take your shot while you're still young

<Eagle_Fire>

will do

it's just a lot easier