[00:30]	<srobertson_>	Anybody alive?
[00:35]	<srobertson_>	Eh, whatever. I need a break, so I'm going to do some pretty intense overhauling of the Neuros wiki. If anybody objects, just roll back.
[01:39]	<srobertson_>	Okay, nobody kill me, but...
[01:39]	<srobertson_>	The Product Description: and Category Roadmap: namespaces are pretty much worthless.
[01:40]	<srobertson_>	I'm going to be very, very bold here and create a sensible hierarchy that doesn't use namespaces, but instead names that make sense and are similar across the product lines.
[03:25]	<jerry>	hi,everyone
[03:29]	<jerry>	I have a question about Preview Engine of DM320, input pic size is 320*240 , I want to output 640*480, but display is bad !
[03:29]	<jerry>	who can tell me what about it?
[13:53]	<JoeBorn>	srobertson: go for it, let us know when you're done and I'll take a look
[14:30]	<srobertson>	okay, it's stil really early, and i've only converted a few articles.
[14:31]	<srobertson>	The most worked-on are theneuros.com and it's child articles.
[14:40]	<JoeBorn>	looks good to me at a quick glance
[14:40]	<JoeBorn>	anything in particuliar I should be reviewing?
[14:43]	<srobertson>	I'd say the biggest thing is, do you like the way the articles are divided up? It's more Wikipedia-like that way, and I think people are used to that...
[14:43]	<srobertson>	but on the other hand it makes the Wiki a place to get information for end-users, as opposed to a place to contribute information...
[14:44]	<srobertson>	because information will most likely come from those more familiar to the Neuros community who read and summarise the mailing-lists.
[14:44]	<srobertson>	Personally I think that's a better idea; ideas can be tossed around in a community before being injected in a place a lot of people read as fact (despite legal disclaimers).
[14:45]	<srobertson>	However, some people want it more forum-like and less structured; easier to add information, but harder to find it just by browsing (as opposed to searching).
[14:47]	<srobertson>	So, do you want the Wiki to be another mailing-list and place for discussion, and the blogs to be the source of updates on projects, general information, etc.; or do you want the Wiki to be a place for pushing out semi-official information and new ideas, the mailing list for developing those ideas, and the blogs as interesting but largely unnecessary places for developer musing?
[14:47]	* srobertson  talks a lot
[15:02]	<JoeBorn>	I think using the wiki as a semi-official information source is more appropriate
[15:03]	* srobertson  breathes sigh of relief
[15:03]	<JoeBorn>	as you've outlined, forums and mailning lists are for debate and brainstorming
[15:03]	<JoeBorn>	blogs for random musing, timely announcements, etc
[15:04]	<Eagle_Fire>	ah, so many ways of disseminating info
[15:04]	<srobertson>	But it works so well, too.
[15:04]	<srobertson>	Take most bands, for instance:
[15:05]	<srobertson>	the ones that build a massive fanbase (out of semi-intelligent people, not radio sheep) typically have a) a MySpace or other social networking account, for pushing information;
[15:06]	<srobertson>	b) An official, Label-sponsored place for publishing things like tour dates that are hard-set;
[15:06]	<srobertson>	c) a blog or blogs where ideas are pushed around, things that excite band members are talked about, and people can feel like they have a relationship with the band; and
[15:07]	<srobertson>	d) some sort of community message-board, forum, or something where fanboys/girls can drool and speculate.
[15:09]	<srobertson>	Having so many sources of information keeps the flock happy and involved.
[15:09]	* srobertson  : still talking too much
[15:09]	<Eagle_Fire>	i been trying to post my tivo code to the lit
[15:10]	<Eagle_Fire>	*list
[15:10]	<Eagle_Fire>	won't bloddy work
[15:10]	<srobertson>	how big?
[15:10]	<Eagle_Fire>	cmd
[15:11]	<srobertson>	windows has a du utility?
[15:11]	<Eagle_Fire>	heh, i'm on cell phone internet
[15:11]	<Eagle_Fire>	huge lag time
[15:12]	<Eagle_Fire>	bear with me
[15:13]	<srobertson>	OMG! RUN IN A ZIG-ZAG MOTION! no, wait, that's alligators. RUN STRAIGHT! uhhhh, clap! YEAH, CLAP YOUR HANDS AND SING LOUDLY! IT'S MORE SCARED OF YOU THAN YOU ARE OF IT! okay, so that's not really true, but still!
[15:14]	<Eagle_Fire>	?
[15:14]	<srobertson>	"bear" with me
[15:14]	<Eagle_Fire>	?
[15:14]	<srobertson>	as in, a bear is in the room with you.
[15:14]	<srobertson>	really bad joke, sorry.
[15:14]	<Eagle_Fire>	?
[15:15]	<srobertson>	*sigh*... don't worry about it
[15:16]	<Eagle_Fire>	?
[15:16]	<srobertson>	oh, hush, you
[15:17]	<randonimity>	srobertson: nobody ever gets you
[15:17]	<srobertson>	randonimity: seriously, please go away and never come back
[15:17]	<randonimity>	alright, whatever
[15:23]	<Eagle_Fire>	aha, finally got my tivo progress on the list
[15:24]	<Eagle_Fire>	hosting on my server
[15:25]	<JoeBorn>	awesome.
[17:08]	<srobertson>	is there an official Neuros self-description, like to tag at the end of a press release, or should I just make some crap up?
[17:11]	<JoeBorn>	well, there's a bunch of stuff on the main webpage.
[17:11]	<JoeBorn>	there's a number of blurbs of various lengths.
[17:12]	<srobertson>	Ooh, shiny. Found a couple.
[17:13]	<srobertson>	thx
[17:16]	<JoeBorn>	I had lipsync problems with avidemux, thoughts?
[17:17]	<srobertson>	Sync drift, or a constant sync problem?
[17:21]	<JoeBorn>	I think it's constant
[17:21]	<JoeBorn>	it's not like one is 24fps and another is 30fps or something like that
[17:21]	<srobertson>	How far, like a quarter of a second or five seconds?
[17:21]	<JoeBorn>	a few seconds
[17:24]	<srobertson>	You can either a) try using the "Filters" dialog under audio to add a suitable timeshift. (Measured in milliseconds, and adjusts audio relative to video, so use 3000 for audio 3 seconds behind video, i think)
[17:24]	<srobertson>	or b) try AutoGK, which may be able to auto-detect silliness like that
[17:28]	<Eagle_Fire>	AV sync is all sorts of difficult
[17:28]	<Eagle_Fire>	you'll notice hacks across the board in my tivomatic code
[17:28]	<Eagle_Fire>	i did come up with something that works perfcectly though
[17:28]	<Eagle_Fire>	it's in there
[17:37]	* JoeBorn  winces at "all sorts of difficult"
[17:40]	<srobertson>	Imagine a garden hose. Then imagine someone uses it in an emergency as a fire-hose. Then imagine that the fire broke the water mains, so the hose is pressed into service as a water main. Bit by bit, imagine the single hose is stretched to fit all of a city's water supply.
[17:40]	<srobertson>	Then add power and telephone.
[17:40]	<srobertson>	Such is the state of the AVI container format.
[17:40]	<Yono>	nice metaphor
[17:41]	<Eagle_Fire>	i like it better than the butthole metaphor
[17:41]	<srobertson>	haven't heard that one.
[17:41]	<Eagle_Fire>	much less disgusting
[17:41]	<srobertson>	not sure i want to.
[17:41]	<Yono>	don't know of that one
[17:41]	<Yono>	but i'll take your word for it
[17:41]	<Eagle_Fire>	it's basically the same thing with the stretching
[17:41]	<Eagle_Fire>	i won't go into the details
[17:42]	<Eagle_Fire>	the avi container isn't that bad though
[17:42]	<Eagle_Fire>	it just assumes constant sample time deltas
[17:42]	<srobertson>	I know, it was just a fun metaphor.
[17:42]	<Eagle_Fire>	unlike the mpg and asf formats
[17:42]	<Yono>	I believe the saying goes: illegal downloaders can't be choosers
[17:42]	<Yono>	or something like that
[17:43]	<Eagle_Fire>	something
[17:44]	<srobertson>	AVI/Xvid/1CD, AVI/DivX/1CD, OGM/AC3/XviD/2CD, MP4/H.264/AAC/1.5CD... nope, no choice there :)
[17:44]	<JoeBorn>	why continue to use AVI? isn't there another open alternative?
[17:44]	<Yono>	give ipod video time
[17:45]	<Yono>	soon we'll all be using their formats
[17:45]	<srobertson>	The Ogg container format is not exactly standardized, the MP4 container format is very new, Matroska has about 4 users worldwide.
[17:45]	<JoeBorn>	well, I understand that .mp4 is a standard
[17:45]	<Eagle_Fire>	avi has the most compatibility
[17:46]	<Eagle_Fire>	at the moment it's not a huge issue
[17:46]	<Eagle_Fire>	to fix the a/v sync i just add/remove video frames
[17:46]	<srobertson>	that's so....
[17:46]	<JoeBorn>	jeeze! sounds horrible!
[17:46]	<srobertson>	AWESOME
[17:47]	<Eagle_Fire>	cbreak does the same thing
[17:47]	<srobertson>	JoeBorn: Actually, video isn't really noticeable at all. As long as it keeps in time with the audio, you can drop something like four consecutive video frames without a noticeable impact, with a bit of post-processing
[17:48]	<Eagle_Fire>	yeah, no one minds
[17:48]	* JoeBorn  gets somache ache
[17:48]	<Eagle_Fire>	so long as the sync is solid
[17:48]	<srobertson>	Audio, on the other hand, you can notice if you drop four or five samples, and there are thousands a second. Funny how that works.
[17:52]	<Yono>	the ear can hear breaks better
[17:52]	<Yono>	if the tempo changes or something the brain picks it up
[17:52]	<Yono>	there is so much info on the screen that the eye probably can't take it in as quickly
[17:52]	<Yono>	just my take on that, don't quote me
[17:52]	<srobertson>	well, yeah, that's pretty close to the truth
[17:53]	<srobertson>	vision operates largely on two dimensions, with the two signals from the eyes multiplexed to form a 3d image...
[17:54]	<srobertson>	the eyes don't react to action, but instead to the visual field as a whole, because they need to procees many things at the same time, so the brain kind of fudges a histerisis curve from the eyes
[17:55]	<srobertson>	otoh, the ears operate in the time domain, and relative intensity is processed secondary to temporal constraints; much more real-time and therefore much more sensitive
[17:56]	<srobertson>	"two signals from the eyes multiplexed" <-- i was born to be a computer nerd, not a doctor
[17:56]	<Yono>	;)
[17:56]	<Eagle_Fire>	and a nerd you sure are
[17:56]	<Yono>	doctors pay better, but comps are still more fun
[17:57]	<Yono>	*pay is
[18:00]	<srobertson>	Eagle_Fire: thank you.
[18:00]	<srobertson>	Yono: And you don't have to take out insurance against yourself. Yet.
[18:01]	<Yono>	:)
[18:03]	<JoeBorn>	there's plenty of money to be made in computers/consumer electronics
[18:03]	<JoeBorn>	I don't see many doctors on forbes 400
[18:04]	<srobertson>	oh snap! what a zing!
[18:04]	<srobertson>	you just lost the medical market. my plans for a DM320-powered defibrilator, dashed.
[18:05]	<JoeBorn>	well, medical devices are something else, there's plenty of money to be made there.
[18:05]	<JoeBorn>	being a doctor is not an easy profession these days.
[18:05]	<Eagle_Fire>	medevices need costly testing/approval
[18:07]	<JoeBorn>	not all.
[18:07]	<JoeBorn>	not all devices need FDA approval.
[18:08]	<JoeBorn>	from what I understand the devices that surgeons use have a fairly reasonable testing procedure, although I'm no expert
[18:08]	<Eagle_Fire>	sounds like Neuros needs to expand its horizons
[18:08]	<srobertson>	Knife: $.30 of steel, $65 of certification.
[18:09]	<srobertson>	but if you change names again, I'm getting an iPod.
[18:10]	<srobertson>	Neuros Things, International, Interplanetary, LLC, Inc.; a not-for-profit partially owned subsidiary of itself.
[18:15]	<srobertson>	okay, I got bored with the wiki. I'll come back to it in a copule days.
[18:15]	<srobertson>	For now, I'm going to try to get Nano-X working, and see if I can't get a little Lua in there.
[18:16]	<Eagle_Fire>	because if we need anything right now, it's lua
[18:19]	<srobertson>	Well, I'm thinking, while everybody's mucking about with all the unimportant stuff, like hardware design and licensing, I can be coming up with the really important stuff, like another abstraction layer!
[18:21]	<srobertson>	Seriously, though, for the Neuros 3, the market is so saturated that if we don't have an absolutely killer UI, then an audio system that maybe 3% of users will use to its full potential isn't so important.
[18:22]	<Yono>	bascially
[18:22]	<Yono>	i'm really not a fan of watching videos on those things though
[18:22]	<Yono>	7" screen, then maybe i'll change my mind
[18:22]	<srobertson>	forgive me. videos?
[18:23]	<Yono>	yeah, you were talking about the n3 market, and by the time it comes out, videos will be on all devices of that type
[18:24]	<srobertson>	oh, true.
[18:26]	<Eagle_Fire>	yeah, my video screen size minimum is the 442
[18:27]	<srobertson>	although I agree, I still feel we should include a cheap, decent color screen on the N3, if it's not too much more expensive.
[18:28]	<srobertson>	Hey, while people are alive:
[18:28]	<srobertson>	Anybody have any thoughts on rapid-scrolling mechanisms on the N3/442v2?
[18:29]	<srobertson>	I've got a couple more ideas for additional features, but usability depends heavily on having a way to scroll aside from a five-way
[18:33]	<srobertson>	Nano-X is *huge*
[18:37]	<srobertson>	137M source for an embedded app
[18:39]	<Yono>	yeah, 5 way is all i can think of
[18:40]	<srobertson>	what's everybody's opinions on: a Dell DJ-like scroll wheel; a Creative Zen-like capacitative scroll bar, or any of those tiny flash players' spring-loaded scrollers?
[18:42]	<Yono>	1st 2 are patented
[18:42]	<Yono>	i'm not a big fan of the third
[18:43]	<srobertson>	how 'bout a throttle?
[18:44]	<Yono>	can't say i've used one on a port. audio player before
[18:44]	<srobertson>	exactly!
[18:44]	<Yono>	i don't think...
[18:44]	<Eagle_Fire>	i'd like pressure sensitive buttons
[18:44]	<Eagle_Fire>	mash the button harder, it goes faster
[18:45]	<Yono>	could be hard to adjust to for some
[18:45]	<Eagle_Fire>	yeah
[18:45]	<Eagle_Fire>	novel things are that way
[18:45]	<Yono>	of course, murphy's law: create something even a fool can use, and only a fool will use it
[18:46]	<Eagle_Fire>	i don't think scrolling should ever be for more than ~10 screens
[18:47]	<Eagle_Fire>	unless the sort order is obvious it stops having meaning
[18:47]	<Yono>	true
[18:47]	<Eagle_Fire>	and if it is obvious you can just skip to what you're looking for anyhow
[18:47]	<Yono>	it all goes back to the UI
[18:47]	<Eagle_Fire>	ya
[18:47]	<Yono>	i personally like the +/- a Char system
[18:48]	<Yono>	oh well
[18:48]	<Eagle_Fire>	tivo's typer is nice
[18:48]	<Yono>	i guess we could always just ask the rockbox guys what they want
[18:48]	<Eagle_Fire>	select from a 2d grid of letters on the left, and a list on the right narrows down
[18:48]	<Yono>	eagle, there's no remote here, simpler=better :)
[19:14]	<JoeBorn>	ok fellas, I'm going home
[19:14]	<JoeBorn>	so you all later