Log from #neuros IRC channel

crweb: thanks! yea I was grepping for mkcramfs to see whether it was the same

still didn't find it. where does that happen?

<crweb>

sourcerror: in /sbin

<crweb>

ln -s /sbin/mkfs.cramfs /sbin/mkcramfs

path to scripting that invokes mkcramfs

<crweb>

sourcerror: just depends on your distro

crweb: I'll do that.

<crweb>

sourcerror: its in the toplevel make file i believe

ok.

<crweb>

sourcerror: or in rootfs/Makefile

ah, I'm grepping everywhere except there now :)

[00:27]

tahnks.

[00:28]

<jwu>

crweb : how support for XP samba gos?

[00:28]

<crweb>

jwu: still exploring options. So far there is nothing small in size

[00:28]

<crweb>

jwu: windows XP can't be a wins server, and samba is to big for flash.

[00:30]

<jwu>

crweb: may the samba source are the old virtion?

[00:30]

<jwu>

version

[00:30]

<jwu>

which version of source you used

<crweb>

jwu: i used the newest

<crweb>

jwu: 3.0.23d

<crweb>

jwu: there hasn't been another update since

<crweb>

jwu: this is a pretty common problem with ALL linux

<crweb>

jwu: just, most people have storage space and ram, so they don't notice

[00:32]

crweb: so how big would it be?

[00:32]

<crweb>

its 4mb total

[00:32]

ah

[00:33]

<crweb>

plus the security stuff you have to add

[00:34]

<jwu>

which security stuff we need?

[00:37]

<crweb>

jwu: just depends. If you are going to have all of samba running already, you might as well implement a full NAS

[00:38]

anyone know... is Neuros-Cooler new for the OSD? I started looking at it and how it interacts with osdmain.

<crweb>

sourcerror: Neuros-Cooler, "IS" osdmain

<crweb>

its a widget set

yea. is it used with their other products too?

just curious.

[00:43]

my build got farther but failed. I think it is the same issue nerochiaro wrote earlier... nerochiaro "...well, the only error i did find was that when building up main-app it expected it to be in a directory, but it was moved in another. kinda easy to fix actually. i'll see tomorrow if i have commit access to that repo. if i do, i'll give it a quick fix". I'm close

[00:44]

Yea, I think nerochiaro meant leave off the "/build" for the main-app.

[00:45]

<jwu>

you must make under /linux-r3-main-app/osdmain/builde

[00:46]

jwu: thanks.

[00:46]

<jwu>

and linux-r3-main-app/nmsd/builde

[00:48]

jwu: I think the top level make will work, right? it looks like it does both osdmain and nms. what is nms?

[00:51]

<jwu>

the top level make is not make of osdmain and nms

[00:51]

<jwu>

nms is a kind of service

[00:51]

<crweb>

jwu: a service that depends on ncooler

[00:52]

<crweb>

jwu: that is not what i had hoped for

[00:52]

I was meaning linux-r3-main-app/Makefile.

crweb: you mean it depends on ncooler but is not a GUI so it shouldn't be depending on ncooler?

<crweb>

yes

<crweb>

its annoying

<crweb>

inorder to use nms, I have to install ncooler

yea. I see if they partition stuff more it will be cleaner.

<crweb>

which means i have to install nano-x

<crweb>

which means now i have X, a widget set, and nms, when Qt provides X, and Widget set

[00:54]

<crweb>

so i have 2 widget sets, 2 graphics servers, and nms

[00:54]

Yep. I understand.

[00:54]

<jwu>

sourcerror: you are right,I had not noticed that makefile before.

[00:55]

no problem... I'm new here so I'm not used to any old ways :)

[00:57]

so after the compile I'm left with "rootfs.tgz"?

[00:57]

is there a .upk?

[00:58]

<crweb>

sourcerror: you can make a upk. but the compile will give you nfs bootable system

[00:58]

OK. well what do you do?

[00:59]

<crweb>

sourcerror: follow instruction si extras/uboot-dev or something like that

[00:59]

Oh, sorry. I meant do you do .upk or nfs boot?

[01:00]

<crweb>

no

[01:00]

<crweb>

you don't

[01:01]

reset. :) What does crweb do during dev/testing... .upk or nfs boot or something else?

[01:01]

<crweb>

i nfs

[01:02]

<crweb>

unless i'm testing my networks scripts. I have to flash with those

[01:02]

ah.

[01:04]

I just haven't done the whole serial setup yet which as I understood it is needed to do the network boot.

[01:04]

<crweb>

yes

[01:10]

crweb: so in the netboot method... once I drop into uBoot and do the configuration, are the changes saved so that it will netboot on subsequent reboots?

[01:10]

<crweb>

you save them yes

[01:10]

ah. cool.

[01:25]

<jwu>

crweb: I find a option

[01:25]

<jwu>

use smbtree

[01:25]

<crweb>

with -b, yes

[01:26]

<crweb>

let me take a closer look

[01:26]

<crweb>

i can't remember why i ruled that out

[01:29]

<jwu>

but a problem is smbtree does not print the ip

[01:30]

<crweb>

jwu: use -b

[01:30]

<crweb>

jwu: i can't get it to work on my osd though

[01:34]

crweb: with your Qt model how do you manage "forms" like they are doing in ncooler?

[01:34]

<crweb>

what are forms?

they have widgets but they also manage screens so you can go back and set callbacks to handle keys.

screens/forms.

<crweb>

i don't know what that is, sorry

let me look again and use their terminology.

[01:38]

<crweb>

in qt3 "forms" were refered to as qt-designer designed widgets

[01:38]

<crweb>

but they weren't any different that any other widget

[01:39]

<crweb>

"forms" are just Widgets

[01:39]

<crweb>

made up of a bunch of other widgets

[01:40]

<crweb>

a QWidget is a blank base. you subclass QWidget to buld a widget.

[01:40]

<crweb>

and you build the widget by including other Widgets that are also subclasses of QWidget

[01:40]

crweb: Neuros has this idea of "forms" that contain widgets but it looks like the idea is to manage 'screens' so that you can 'go back' or 'go home' and the cooler handles this (see "Neuros-Cooler/src/nx/form.c")

<crweb>

sounds like a widget that just unhides() when a button is pushed

<crweb>

probably a reason its so slow

it's more than the widgets. It's creating a framework around it to manage the flow of screens.

<crweb>

all screens exist in memory all the time

<crweb>

in qt, that frame work is part of the widgets

maybe not. maybe just the stack history.

in ncooler.

<crweb>

theres nothing visiable in qt thats not a widget

[01:43]

<crweb>

and stuff not visable are just libraries. like SQL, Strings, Generic lists

[01:44]

I can understand what they are doing the child menu items don't need to know their place in the whole app, they just handle "back" and their state is sort of 'pop'ed away including any callbacks they registered.

...I may have some suggestions for cleaning that up too. but I need to understand more.

<crweb>

things done in C are much different

<crweb>

you have to use callbacks and stuff

<crweb>

it probably very closely resmebles gtk

[01:46]

<crweb>

I have no interest in ncooler, or osdmain

[01:46]

I don't mean cleaning up callbacks. I mean I have some suggestions for them in simplifying each screen's handler.

[01:46]

<crweb>

sourcerror: nerochiaro would be someone to talk about for tha tkind of stuff

<crweb>

i'm a linux admin and a qt/c++ and java developer

is nerochiaro part of the Lobster crew

I think I read that.

<crweb>

he was involved i think

<crweb>

not sure what that was about either

<crweb>

again, no interest in lobster or lua

I have no interest in lua.

<crweb>

that stuff is for people that can't do the real stuff

<crweb>

i like to help neuros

its for if you want to make an interface that fits in, and your not a good programmer

<crweb>

but I didn't get my osd to hook it to the tv

a way to let the noobs in

well, I can see some benefit. it would be nice to have a way to hook up a GUI to an app that doesn't have a GUI in a simple way.

<crweb>

I got it to learn the real stuff

i got it to help neuros hurry up

hey anders__

<crweb>

and to do qtopia development

[01:50]

<crweb>

the osd was cheaper than the dev board i wanted, + plays divx

[01:50]

<crweb>

:)

[01:58]

<crweb>

sourcerror: when I want to press the home key and it take me all the way back to the main menu

[01:58]

yea?

[01:59]

<crweb>

sourcerror: i just send proprigate the event through the parent widget, which sends it to its parnet, which sends it to its parent

[01:59]

<crweb>

with sendEvent(parent,&event)

[02:01]

what if the screen has a timer that is managing some animation and when you hit home the screen is not showing any more? who deactivates that timer?

[02:01]

<crweb>

well, the first widget to catch the event is the current one playing the animation

[02:01]

<crweb>

it can stop itself

[02:02]

you'd like the screen to get an event that says you are no longer visible, right?

[02:02]

<crweb>

no

[02:02]

<crweb>

you press home

each screen should not have to care about 'home'. home should be ignored by sub screens.

<crweb>

it is a keyboard/ir event. Current widget gets the event goes, Oh it was the home button. Here letme stop animation, and pass this on.

<crweb>

sourcerror: they only care about what you tell them to care about

<crweb>

a keypress is just a keypress

i think you should not intercept. your parent should send another event to tell the screen that it is no longer visible. do you see the diff?

<crweb>

?

<crweb>

it doesn't intercept

<crweb>

the event replicates

<crweb>

each widget can take care of itself

it's like the difference between the java 1.1 AWT and later with event listeners.

[02:05]

<crweb>

a "screen" as you call it, can make itself not visable

[02:05]

or was it 1.0?

[02:05]

<crweb>

the event comes from the parent

<crweb>

gets to the child. The child says "oh yeah i need that, or No i don't need that"

<crweb>

if the child needs it, and doesn't need to pass it on, then it just keeps it

<crweb>

if the child doesn't need it, it ignores and passes on

<crweb>

if the child needs it and it needs to pass it on, it does os

<crweb>

its all up to you

<crweb>

you tell it what to do

<crweb>

it is an event system

[02:07]

that was the flaw with the first java event handlers. where child had to pass it up or signal that it handled it and parent no longer needed to handle.

[02:07]

<crweb>

it doesn't work like that

[02:07]

alright.

<crweb>

if you didn't say "don't pass on" then it passes back to through the event handlers till someone doesn't pass it

<crweb>

objects can take care of themselves

<crweb>

my "animation" screen doesn't need a parent to tell it to hide

<crweb>

if it gets a home button, it knows, I need to hide

[02:09]

<crweb>

if it gets a don't care button, it passes it on. If the parent gets button and goes, well i need to do x, so Hide the animation.

[02:09]

<crweb>

then the parent tells the animation to hide

[02:09]

but that's the problem. the child should not deal with any keys directly because then each child needs to understand 'home'. not good.

<crweb>

?

<crweb>

i want my childs to deal with keys directly

<crweb>

these are objects

I meant the child should not deal with any global keys directly because then each child needs to understand 'home' for example.

<crweb>

theya re individual

<crweb>

you can tell the top level window to hide all

<crweb>

but there is a better design

hmm.

<crweb>

in qt

<crweb>

every "child" can also be a window

<crweb>

my database window, can run standalone, just as it can run as a window

<crweb>

you are looking at parent/child the c way

<crweb>

each "widget"/"screen" is independant objects of code running

<crweb>

they can manage themselves

nope. I'm coming at this from java Swing ideas.

<crweb>

if I don't want my object to listen for "home"

<crweb>

then I don't tell it to

<crweb>

but SOMEONE has to

we agree on that.

<crweb>

inorder for it to hide

<crweb>

so you make the parent

<crweb>

and the parent can hide it

I'm just saying someone listens to home and sends another event that the child does listen for.

<crweb>

or maybe in child X you want to home button to do something else

<crweb>

why?

<crweb>

why send another event?

<crweb>

thats the same thing

because it might be a different key tomorrow and you don't want to hardcode the child to listen for home keys.

<crweb>

you are coding events

<crweb>

has nothing to do with the "key"

you just want it to listen for the keys it uses directly

key/event

<crweb>

you can link any key, to any event

well then we don't disagree. :)

<crweb>

if you want to do it your way, you do it your way

<crweb>

its a full system. You design it.

[02:16]

I have a feeling we don't disagre here. I haven't looked at Qt.

[02:17]

But I did see in the OSDmain some lower level screens like 'settings -> network' that listens for the home key. I don't think that is right. That is what I was saying earlier that I had some suggstions.

<crweb>

if my top level widget doesn't catch it, then it doesn't do anything

<crweb>

you choose what handles it

<crweb>

i can catch and pass it on too

<crweb>

but there is always a "parent widget"

[02:19]

<crweb>

that everything comes back to in the end

[02:19]

<crweb>

doc.trolltech.com

[02:19]

<crweb>

is the widget communication between eachother

[02:20]

OK here is a better example... you can have many keys besides home that should cause a lower level child to suspend some animation task. So do you force the child to listen for a home event and all other events. Better to just tell the child that it is no longer visible.

[02:20]

<crweb>

doc.trolltech.com

[02:20]

<crweb>

The child knows when its no longer visiable

<crweb>

why tell it?

<crweb>

no longer visiable is another event

crweb: then damn it we agree!

<crweb>

they are self contained, You don't have to tell it its not visiable

you were saying it listens to a home event if I remember correctly

<crweb>

I do listen to a home event

<crweb>

because not only do i want to not be visable, i want to delete

<crweb>

on home

<crweb>

but to just stop the animation when ! visable, an object knows everything about itself

<crweb>

its running in a window manager, it gets told

[02:23]

<crweb>

it moves itself to be hidden

[02:23]

<crweb>

if you want it to

[02:23]

<crweb>

you can even make your own events..

[02:24]

yea that is good.

[02:25]

<crweb>

from what I gather all that "child" means is that, the object was created in the parent. and it inherits decorations etc

<crweb>

you can make non-child widgets just the same

<crweb>

i've never used any other widget system (cept for gtk+)

<crweb>

so i really don't know how else to compare things cept in qt's own terms

java Swing?

[02:27]

<crweb>

nope

[02:27]

<crweb>

i write sql backends

<crweb>

and java/qt4

<crweb>

but thats kinda silly

<crweb>

it does work though

from the URLs you listed above it seems Qt sends more events which you can filter. Where Swing you need to add yourself explicitly as a listener. But then it seems very similar.

after that.

[02:29]

<crweb>

i can't get anymore detailed after that

[02:29]

<crweb>

i just use it

[02:29]

<crweb>

and it works great

[02:30]

<crweb>

I'm not doing my home button stuff yet though

[02:30]

well I wish I knew more about the lower level linux kernel + device drivers stuff. I know very little. I have a "Linux Device Drivers" book that has not been opened much as I wanted to.

[02:30]

<crweb>

not sure how i'm going to handl "home"

[02:31]

<crweb>

my application is built of lots of other applications

[02:31]

<crweb>

did you mean "home" as in, the main window of the audio player you were in, or as in "main menu"

[02:31]

I think I wanted to just point it out to you that they have some other things they are doing in ncooler besides just widgets show/hide. :)

[02:32]

<crweb>

i'm sure the would love you if you fixed the listbox scrolling

[02:32]

I meant I thought you'd have your own interprentation of pressing the "home" key on the remote in your audio player or whatever else you were doing with Qt.

[02:33]

<crweb>

the problem with what you were saying with the animation was, what if the animation isn't top level

[02:33]

is it listboxes or just everything? I noticed the screen refresh seemed slow when you move around... I could see it draw the whole screen ever key. But I wasn't sure if it was just my tvcard + tvtime effects.

[02:33]

<crweb>

you have parent -> animation -> top level child

<crweb>

if the parent takes the home key and "hides" animation.

<crweb>

the top level child stays

<crweb>

a child can stay unhidden if a parent hides

<crweb>

then who has focus?

<crweb>

the file selector was waiting for file input

yea i see.

<crweb>

that is IF the child is a top level child

<crweb>

it doesn't have to be

<crweb>

but thats just an example

[02:36]

<crweb>

i can't control how _you_ subclass my animation widget

[02:36]

sourcerror: it seems that cooler redraws the whole screen only on listboxes. do you know of something else that redraws the whole screen ?

[02:36]

<crweb>

sourcerror: see, in qt everything is a widget. So i can release all my windows as a widget pack that you can use.

[02:37]

nerochiaro: it looks like in the "settings->network" screen I can see a redraw while moving between entry boxes.

[02:37]

<crweb>

sourcerror: and you use my widgets and customize them into your own by subclassing them

[02:37]

<crweb>

so, Trolltech has to think worry about both how their own widgets interact, and how MY widgets will interact

[02:38]

<crweb>

since my widgets are subclasses of theirs

[02:38]

<crweb>

Qt is designed in this way. You are suppose to subclass

[02:38]

<crweb>

its just provides a "base"

[02:39]

<crweb>

which is how they make it portable

[02:39]

nerochiaro: I was wrong (it's late). IT does not do that in the "settings->network" screen.

[02:40]

<crweb>

mmm i can't wait for my new chair tomorrow

[02:40]

neuvochairo?

crweb: I'll have to look at Qt more. Maybe I develop on your Qt rather than ncooler.

<crweb>

well if you do

It's all C++ right? I like that.

sourcerror: ok, i got what you said. just didn't have anything to reply to that ;)

<crweb>

a "main" qtopia app will be running

[02:43]

<crweb>

sourcerror: you can even start up your own app, while my app is running

[02:43]

<crweb>

and share gfx

[02:44]

<crweb>

which means, if you write a ftp client, you can start it from my gui, and it open up and be just like it was running as main app

[02:44]

nerochiaro: no I was just being dumb and doing a play on words 'new chair' ... 'nuevochairo'.

[02:44]

sourcerror: lol, i thought it was just misspelling. i get misspelling a lot

tab completeion :S

* daurnimator wishes for a guy named completion

lol

<crweb>

sourcerror: qt has "lobster" built in

crweb: you mean lua bindings ?

[02:46]

<crweb>

no the concept

[02:46]

nero: what happended to etk/efl etc?

[02:46]

<crweb>

sourcerror: because of the pda market. Qtopia apps start the QWS server which is a window manager

<crweb>

sourcerror: if you are the first app to start for instance, you start with ./yourapp -qws to mean, start the qtopia window server

daurnimator: still working on it. got stuck on some stuff that i'm waiting for gao to release (an that hopefully he will put out end of next week)

<crweb>

or, your app can BE the window server

daurnimator: but got it to work mostly here

ah. I have a zaurus SL-5500 with Qtopia on it (I still feel bad about not doing dev on my Zaurus, oh well)

crweb: what that has to do with lobster ?

[02:48]

<crweb>

lobster is what would be used to run non cooler type apps in the gui right?

[02:48]

<crweb>

lua apps

[02:48]

crweb: well, no. mostly is just lua bindings to cooler

[02:49]

<crweb>

to allow lua to display in osdmain

no, to allow you to write apps like osdmain, but in lua

<crweb>

ah

witouth touching C

<crweb>

nvrmind then

<crweb>

theres qt-script aswell

<crweb>

i don't like it as much

yet another language ?

[02:51]

<crweb>

QSA, its always existed

[02:51]

I think the lobster/lua stuff is great approach but I don't know lua and not sure if want to pick up another language.

[02:51]

crweb: well, if it did, it's only known inside QT mostly. never heard of it

<crweb>

oh, interesting looks like qsa is opensource now

<crweb>

nerochiaro: you had to buy it

sourcerror: well, it's pretty easy, but anyway if you know C go with that

<anders_>

crweb: The new ecma scripting language in qt seems nice.

<crweb>

anders_: yeah, seems like everyone loves qt4

anders_: ecma in the sense of javascript-like ?

<crweb>

anders_: new java bindings, opensource QSA, qtopia commercial version released as opensource

<anders_>

nerochiaro: Yes.

nerochiaro: but I read on your user page you are a Ruby fan, why lua instead of something like Ruby?

<crweb>

Qt4/Qtopia/Qtopia-Core are all cross compatible

sourcerror: ruby interpreter + class library is way too massive and un-optimized to run on the osd. i with it was viable, but isn't

ah.

ruby rocks

<crweb>

nerochiaro: did you have it running?

<crweb>

nerochiaro: once i upped the ram to 32mb, everything got way faster

<crweb>

even osdmain

crweb: i just saw the size of it and gave up. it might even work, but the footprint is still huge

<crweb>

not to huge for our new sd on root when i get mdev working

plus even if it ran, it would use tons more memory than lua

it's just a different, non-embedded-optimized approach. lua is made with embedded in mind

right tool for the right job, after all