Log from #neuros IRC channel

yeah, I think this quick start will be the replacement for derobert's guide, maybe with a link to derobert's guide for those who for whatever reason, can't use the vm thing

[00:47]

I'm not really clear just what that reason might be, but I'm sure there's something

[00:47]

<cxie>

peter, are you here?

[00:48]

I don't understand the part, and again forgive my ignorance, about "offers a clean interface to "make install" what does that mean?

[00:48]

hello, caven

[00:53]

JoeBorn: to me what that means is... for a lot of existing software (not originally intended for the OSD or ARM) you

[00:54]

(1) download tarball, (2) untar, (3) ./configure, (4) make, (5) make install. And that means with scratchbox it should be that straight forward

[00:59]

...potential to unleash a 'torrent' of software that could be easily compiled for OSD

[01:14]

what does the part about "then you clean" mean?

[01:14]

and how do you package without creating a whole new upk?

[01:17]

JoeBorn: where was the "then you clean" part written. I'll interpret again (since crweb sleeping, sorry crweb).

[01:17]

open.neurostechnology.com

[01:17]

where I quoted from him on the ML

[01:18]

i'd like to know what he meant by that as well - i don't really follow

[01:19]

well, on a separate question, does anyone know if this'll allow some way to package binaries for simple install on the OSD without having to reflash?

[01:20]

well now you can just copy the binary over to a usb drive or something and run it like that

[01:20]

like crweb did with the ftp server

[01:21]

don't quote me on this because I don't understand Scratchbox, but I believe you just back out of scratchbox, tar up what is there, then delete everything, and you are ready to do another build. (I have not tried that)

[01:22]

open.neurostechnology.com

[01:23]

the problem is that it seems like whatever is in Target-Rootfs is everything, I don't see why you want to tar everything unless you are creating a custom .upk

[01:23]

yeah - thats where he lost me

[01:25]

but creating a custom .upk is also a goal in case you want to flash that.

[01:25]

but thats not been done yet

[01:26]

well if you can easily filter out the starting rootfs when tar'ing then you can create a binary package though.

[01:27]

what would be included in a "binary package" asside from the compiled binary itself?

[01:28]

<Ycros>

libraries, resources, documentation

[01:28]

yea the main binary but also you can have anything, files that go in /etc, other configuration, libraries. each wants to be in some standard place. so you

[01:28]

yea what Ycros said.

[01:28]

<Ycros>

whatever it installs

[01:29]

hmm - allright

[01:30]

JoeBorn: yea this is the path to packaging for simple install too

[01:31]

I see. cool

[02:09]

cool indeed. and sourcerror, you explanation was correct

[02:16]

vmarks: you around ?

[02:26]

vmarks is in US now AFAIK, so he's probably snoozing.

[02:27]

JoeBorn: ok, i was to chat a bit with him about epg, as you suggested. i'll look for him later on

[02:27]

yeah, I figured. I think he's eager to help.

[02:28]

JoeBorn: i think we should put up a system that doesn't force anyone to choose an epg provider. we can write different back-ends that fetch data from various providers

[02:29]

JoeBorn: and i might be wrong, but an epg at the end of the day is just a database of info on when programs start and end and which channel are they on

[02:29]

so every provider basically provides the same data

[02:30]

fine with me if we abstract out the actual supplier of the data

[02:31]

another thing i was wondering is how we integrate it with the actual channel-changing ability. i suppose that is done via ir blaster ?

[02:31]

i mean, if one schedules recordings on different channels, the osd has to change the tv channel before starting record

[02:31]

nerochiaro, do you have access to a mythtv box or whatever you need to see what they do (on a user level)?

[02:32]

yes, IR blaster or serial control.

[02:32]

no, i don't. i can look at mythtv videos, there should be some around

[02:32]

AFAIK, mythtv as an example can control either

[02:34]

well, we have a mythtv box here, FWIW (in xiamen) that's probably not much help to you though

[02:34]

JoeBorn: i see. it seems that ir blaster is already a work in progress for us, although still needs some work. as for serial controlling a tv, i've never heard anyone working on it

[02:35]

JoeBorn: well, i have to setup some real television rig in here. or fix my tv tuner card at least

[02:36]

i need to do that anyway

[02:39]

JoeBorn: anyway, the actual channel changin is an issue, but i'll get all the rest of the program figured out first

[02:39]

JoeBorn: one other thing is, how tightly integrated you need that to be with osdmain ?

[02:39]

I have no idea. What do you mean?

[02:41]

<Ycros>

you just have to learn the commands

[02:41]

if we have to do it all snazzy colored and good looking like the pages you see at titantv or the mythtv epg program, then we either need to write some more advanced cooler widgets, or use a separate program done with a better GUI library, like enlightenment or something

[02:41]

Ycros: for the blaster ?

[02:41]

<Ycros>

yeah, like, you learn ir commands

[02:41]

Ycros: i know, but i've read in ml that it still needs improvement

[02:41]

Ycros: doesn't always work

[02:44]

nerochiaro, I'm not really sure I can answer that because I don't have a full appreciation for all the tradeoffs.

[02:45]

certainly we want the OSD UI to look better, but it would be disasterous to get bogged down with some huge project that delays things to the point that it collapses in a pool of its own vomit :)

[02:45]

does that help? :D

[02:45]

JoeBorn: short and to the point :)

[02:46]

<Ycros>

mmm, snazzyness.

[02:49]

so I guess I'd like to break any of these projects down to parts, and try to suss out (to the extent possible with my pea brain) the dependencies between them.

[02:49]

allrigth. i'm typing it up

[02:50]

I mean if there's a working EPG gui that we can port, but we need windowing support that we don't have, then that's one thing

[02:51]

no, there's no direct port i was considering. although i might want to try and look for something existing now that you mention it

[02:52]

JoeBorn: keep in mind i'm still at the brainstorming stage here, trying to find the more viable solution

[02:52]

<Ycros>

JoeBorn: do you guys have an artist or a designer?

[02:53]

nerochiaro, yep, and we should allot some time for that, to avoid flailing.

[02:53]

<Ycros>

I guess not since you wouldn't need one that often

[02:53]

instead of our usual headless chicken routine, we should allocate some time to research, then implemment and then test.

[02:54]

JoeBorn: yes, it's saner

[02:54]

Ycros, no we don't have a full time person, we have a freelance guy

[02:54]

he's the one who designed the OSD and the UI for the N1/2 etc

[02:54]

John Olson

[02:54]

<Ycros>

ah, right

[02:55]

<Ycros>

testing is important

[05:04]

<Dark_Aurel>

Hi everybody!... Can anyone provide me some help with Neuros API?... Espesially with NmsRecord() function....

[05:05]

Dark_Aurel: it might take me some time to answer, as i'm working on other stuff, but try asking your question

[05:05]

I wish I could Dark_Aurel, what are you working on?

[05:07]

<Dark_Aurel>

I'm working at A/V streming...

[05:07]

streaming from or to the OSD?

[05:08]

<Dark_Aurel>

And i have a question: the second argument of NmsRecord() is filename which data will be recorded to, isn't it?

[05:08]

<Dark_Aurel>

From

[05:08]

oh, that's cool!

[05:08]

<Dark_Aurel>

Using OSD as stream source...

[05:08]

very cool.

[05:09]

<Dark_Aurel>

So i want to know: may i specify name of pipe as the 2nd parameter of NmsRecord() and so i can get the stream?...

[05:09]

Dark_Aurel: yes, it's the file name

[05:09]

<Dark_Aurel>

Sorry for bad English...

[05:09]

Dark_Aurel: i have never tried that. did you try ?

[05:10]

<Dark_Aurel>

I'm going to try...

[05:10]

i'm interested in seeing if that works too

[05:10]

<Dark_Aurel>

But currently i can't connect to my OSD, because of i'm using notebook & it has no COM port...

[05:11]

<Dark_Aurel>

btw, does anybody tried to connect OSD using Usb serial converter?...

[05:11]

some did, and it works

[05:11]

but it seems only certain models

[05:12]

<Dark_Aurel>

Oh... Where did they ship the converter?...

[05:12]

I did it and it worked fine both with windows and linux

[05:12]

<Dark_Aurel>

I found no ones in Ukraine...:(

[05:12]

I'm not sure I know that folks had problems with the hardware, I believe it was mostly config

[05:12]

<Dark_Aurel>

Maybe there are some online-shops where i can order it?..

[05:13]

I don't have mine handy or I'd give you the brand of it.

[05:13]

<Dark_Aurel>

JoeBorn: Give me model name, pls...

[05:13]

Dark_Aurel: post in mailing list that question about serial usb adapter, i'm sure people can give you model names

[05:14]

I *don't* have it handy

[05:14]

<Dark_Aurel>

Ok, I'll ask in mailing list...

[05:17]

Dark_Aurel: from a quick look, it seems the actual writing to file during recording is done inside the media plugings. so i can't look into the source of the plugins too see how the writing is actually done and if a pipe will work

[05:17]

sorry

[05:25]

Dark_Aurel: can you test your program using telnet to access the osd, instead of serial ?

[05:34]

<Dark_Aurel>

I'm back...

[05:35]

<Dark_Aurel>

nerochiaro: May be it's possible to ask the question about pipes to Neuros Technologies?

[05:36]

Dark_Aurel: yes, but first i suggest just trying to see if it works

[05:37]

<Dark_Aurel>

How can i telnet to OSD?...

[05:37]

<Dark_Aurel>

Oh, i've understood. I need to check...

[05:37]

Dark_Aurel: do you know the IP of the OSD ?

[05:52]

<Dark_Aurel>

Yes, i do

[05:52]

ok, so you're in with telnet now ?

[05:52]

<Dark_Aurel>

Btw, does anybody have "screenshots" of OSD GUI?...

[05:52]

<Dark_Aurel>

Yes

[05:53]

Dark_Aurel: we can make screenshots if you want, why do you need them ?

[05:53]

<Dark_Aurel>

Yes, i need them... Please make them bcs i have no camera...

[05:54]

Dark_Aurel: well, but the osdmain GUI is big, what part do you need ?

[05:54]

Dark_Aurel: do you have a tv-tuner card ?

[05:55]

<Dark_Aurel>

No, i have no tv-card yet...

[05:55]

<Dark_Aurel>

i need screenshots of some screens ( just main screen is enough)...

[05:56]

send me an private message with your email address. i will send you some screenshots later this evening

[05:56]

now, back to the pipe: do you have a program that can test recording with a pipe ?

[05:57]

<Dark_Aurel>

I working at it...

[05:57]

ok

[08:58]

<crweb>

Was the cleaning/package question answered?

[08:59]

which question ?

[09:00]

<crweb>

about why you would want to tar up the whole Target dir

[09:00]

<crweb>

and how to clean the target in sbox

[09:00]

<crweb>

sourcerror: you clean by typing sb-menu and selecting the clean option

[09:00]

you can also do that without going into the menu

[09:01]

sb-conf reset --force profile

[09:01]

where profile is your target name

[09:02]

and after you reset, should't you ask sbox to reinstall clibrary and all the rest of the stuff ?

[09:02]

<crweb>

Joe left already, but as far as tar'ing up the whole target . Since the rootfs is read only you wouldn't want to tar up the whole Target/* for a non nfs setup. I was refering to a later time when we will have package manager and stuff

[09:03]

<crweb>

using unionfs, a package could just simply be untar'd at / to install

[09:03]

crweb: not sure it's wise to unionfs over /

[09:03]

<crweb>

the whole clean structure is in Target/*

[09:04]

<crweb>

nerochiaro: even if its just usr/local still works the same

[09:04]

crweb: yes, but it's much less overhead

[09:04]

actually i would go as far as saying that no one should install stuff in /usr/bin , but just in /usr/local/bin

[09:04]

<crweb>

I'm building a package manager next

[09:05]

<crweb>

well, you can't install to /usr/bin ;)

[09:05]

crweb: can you please give a look at the ldconfig stuff before ?

[09:05]

<crweb>

yes, i have to fix ld to do this

[09:05]

ok

[09:05]

why did you say you can't install to /usr/bin/

[09:05]

?

[09:06]

<crweb>

i don't understand unionfs yet

[09:06]

<crweb>

never used it, never looked at it.

[09:06]

<crweb>

I've still been brainstorming fixes without it

[09:06]

if you can do without it, better

[09:06]

<crweb>

honestly, we are going to have symlink hell.

[09:07]

<crweb>

and the only fix, is rw rootfs

[09:07]

can we rw only parts of the rootfs ?

[09:07]

<crweb>

we need a fast, rw fs for root.

[09:07]

<Ycros>

crweb: gnu stow?

[09:07]

<crweb>

nerochiaro: well, as far as uses go, we just won't let the gui explore the filesystem

[09:08]

<Ycros>

hmm, needs perl

[09:08]

<Ycros>

crweb: disregard that

[09:08]

crweb: of course, but people telnetting can do whatever they want. i suggest making rw only the parts that are actually supposed to be modifiable

[09:08]

<crweb>

file permissions

[09:09]

<crweb>

stop logging in as root

[09:09]

i was about to say "we are root"

[09:09]

<crweb>

i dunno, with out partitioning that may be an issue

[09:10]

<crweb>

even if someone did telnet and break something. Whats the worst that happens?

[09:10]

<crweb>

reflash

[09:10]

<Ycros>

crweb: unionfs overlays two filesystem

[09:10]

<Ycros>

s

[09:10]

crweb: getting back to sbox, did you see what i said before about sbox reset ? doesn't it remove also everything that sbox installed in the target and require people to put it back using the install item in the menu ? my sbox setup works that way

[09:11]

Ycros: yep, if you look it's already used in the OSD, you can overlay automatically media cards and usb disks

[09:11]

<crweb>

nerochiaro: i have no idea. That seems odd to me cause, whats the point. We will definitely need a sbox guid

[09:11]

<crweb>

I won't be writing it though.

[09:11]

crweb: the one i have in the wiki is alraedy ok

[09:12]

crweb: the point is that in the target root you don't have only the stuff you build, but also libc and other stuff that sbox installs

[09:12]

crweb: so when you reset, you need to put that back

[09:12]

<crweb>

i didn't know that

[09:12]

<crweb>

i thought it was just a empty fs

[09:12]

crweb: which is also the reason why you are not expected to pick up the whole root of the target

[09:12]

try it with find

[09:13]

you generally install your stuff in /usr/local/ on the target , and pick up that

[09:13]

<crweb>

Is there a way to clean out everything that sbox put in, after you done building

[09:14]

i don't think so

[09:14]

<crweb>

otherwise, I'm not sure i'm grasping the point of having a targetfs. other than its not your actual /

[09:14]

the point is that you know what you installed

[09:14]

at least you should

[09:14]

or you can rely on the fact

[09:14]

that you should install to /usr/local/ anyway

[09:14]

<crweb>

well, say you installed to /

[09:15]

why ?

[09:15]

<crweb>

because I'm building a new upk/flash

[09:15]

<crweb>

samba likes to be in /etc/samba, etc

[09:15]

then you should know what you installed. or use checkinstall

[09:15]

<Ycros>

doesn't have to be, hmm

[09:15]

<crweb>

(btw, I've got to rebuild samba to use the correct files)

[09:16]

<crweb>

Ycros: no, right now its /usr/local/samba/*

[09:16]

<crweb>

Ycros: if you notice, try using smbclient, it'll say no /usr/local/samba/etc/samba/smb.conf found

[09:16]

<suma>

crweb: where can i download faster the scratchbox torrent one, it is very slow here 895 bytes per second ?

[09:16]

crweb: checkinstall might be a good idea, if you don't know what your setup installs. take a look at it

[09:16]

<crweb>

but its an official part of the distro now, so should just go ahead and put it in /

[09:17]

<crweb>

maybe this is just special case

[09:17]

<crweb>

everyone else won't be working on actual inclusion into official firmware

[09:17]

<Ycros>

heh

[09:18]

<Ycros>

i'd be tempted to bzr the target

[09:18]

there are various tools that help find out what changed on a tree

[09:18]

<crweb>

well, i can do it. I was just thinking in terms of newbies

[09:19]

<Ycros>

suma: I don't think it's located anywhere else

[09:19]

crweb: i know. something should be provided for them. but tarring up the whole root of the target ain't the best idea. you end up with lots of stuff that makes no sense. it would be like tarring up the root of your machine

[09:20]

<crweb>

ok, like i said i thought it was empty

[09:21]

<crweb>

I'll fix the doc. did 0.61 get released before everyone went to bed?

[09:21]

crweb: i know you didn't know. i was in fact telling you about that

[09:21]

<crweb>

it was monday in china wasn't it?

[09:22]

<Ycros>

it's tuesday here in au

[09:22]

<Ycros>

2:22am

[09:22]

<Ycros>

so, yes

[09:22]

<crweb>

should be 12:22am tuesday xiamen ?

[09:23]

<crweb>

guess something went wrong with 0.61

[09:23]

<Ycros>

err

[09:23]

<Ycros>

dunno

[09:23]

i guess so too

[09:23]

<anders_>

0.61 bad?

[09:24]

in the sense they didn't officially release it

[09:24]

<anders_>

Ah, okey.

[09:24]

<crweb>

nerochiaro: most eps guides use some sort of direct xml data

[09:25]

crweb: you mean that they provide the program listing info in xml ?

[09:25]

<crweb>

yes

[09:25]

<crweb>

using one of those new catch phrazes i can't remember but am looking up

[09:26]

i know. but at the end of the day, regardless of the format, all the epg info is just a series of channel+programe_name+start_time+end_time

[09:26]

at least, as far as fundamental data goes

[09:26]

<crweb>

right

[09:27]

<crweb>

mythtv uses zipit directdata (which is XMLTV replacement)

[09:27]

<crweb>

most provide readers already

[09:28]

<crweb>

maybe it was zapit

[09:28]

<crweb>

i'm going to go have come caffene, go to class, then I'll be back like 10pm ish.

[09:29]

<crweb>

actually, I probably wont be back till tomorrow

[09:29]

should i email you some suggestions for the sbox stuff ?

[09:29]

<crweb>

yes

[09:29]

cool, i'll put them up later. private or ML ?

[09:29]

<crweb>

tom@limesg.com

will do

<crweb>

<crweb>

ah ah

[09:31]

<crweb>

SOAP

[09:31]

<crweb>

its called SOAP

[09:31]

ah, yeah

[09:31]

it's data in xml envelopes

[09:32]

where data can be other xml

[09:32]

<crweb>

ok, I have to go, long day ahead.

[09:32]

have a good day, bye

[09:41]

vmarks: are you around now ?

[10:07]

<crweb>

nerochiaro: www.limesg.com

[10:08]

i've seen that. can't say i'm able to read it though ;)

[10:08]

<crweb>

thats how I design

[10:09]

<crweb>

the paper is much easier to read

[10:09]

i imagine

[10:09]

<crweb>

sort of

[10:09]

it's not different than my sketches anyway

[10:09]

that is, a mess ;)

[10:09]

crweb: sbox tips is in the mail

[10:10]

<crweb>

k

[10:10]

<crweb>

I find my linear algerbra professor a little boring.

[10:10]

i find linear algebra a little boring

[10:10]

there's also samba questions in the ML

[10:12]

<crweb>

i shouldn't have said XP shares

[10:12]

<crweb>

seeing shares isn't the problem

[10:12]

<crweb>

finding them is.

[10:13]

finding in the sense of "detecting all the shares on all the machines on the network" ?

[10:13]

<crweb>

finding them as, Getting the netbios name of a computer to browse

[10:14]

<crweb>

once you have the name, the shares are there

[10:14]

yes, that's what i was thinking

[10:14]

<crweb>

I think we are going to take my proposed solution

[10:14]

<crweb>

scan and cache

[10:15]

seem the way everyone else does it, no ?

[10:15]

<crweb>

it appears that way

[10:15]

<crweb>

come to find out, its a microsoft bug/feature

[10:15]

<crweb>

for XP-SP2

[10:15]

<crweb>

for some reason, machines won't broadcast their netbios names unless Windows messeging service is on

[10:16]

<crweb>

which is turned off cause viri were spreading using it.

[10:16]

which opens the door for all kind of crap

[10:17]

<crweb>

there is NO reason for netbios names to be linked to messaging

[10:17]

<crweb>

and XP-SP2 is the only place where it is

[10:17]

crweb: some deliberate crippling on ms part, probably

[10:17]

<crweb>

yeah, i was going to say, use your imagination as to whats going on there :)

[10:18]

* nerochiaro shakes head

[10:25]

<crweb>

nerochiaro: you need to run the update

[10:25]

where is that ?

[10:25]

<crweb>

nerochiaro: www.limesg.com

[10:25]

didn't know you pulled out a new one

[10:25]

how does that work ?

[10:25]

<crweb>

uncompress, cd VM-update-0.1a

[10:25]

<crweb>

./vm-update.sh

[10:26]

<crweb>

on the vm

[10:26]

<crweb>

err, in the vm

[10:26]

ok

[10:27]

<crweb>

sudo dpkg-reconfgure console-data

[10:27]

<crwe