Log from #neuros IRC channel

[04:33]

crweb: you there ?

[04:41]

nerochiaro: watch: wonder if you will find it funny - i find it hilarious

[04:41]

youtube.com

[04:41]

daurnimator: let's see

[04:47]

daurnimator: some gags were not bad, but i really hate when they put in these faked audience cheers. i hate that, i can do my own laughing when i find it necessary thank you.

[04:48]

uh

[04:48]

that shows a live audience

[04:48]

(this section is shown on a screen)

[04:49]

really ? they sounded really fake to me, like the ones they put in some american TV shows

[04:50]

yeah

[04:50]

oh, anyway, the moustache on that guy was the most funky thing

[04:50]

they sound a bit fake

[04:50]

but, i'm not sure

[04:52]

heres another: youtube.com

[04:52]

don't have much time right now. maybe later

[04:52]

i'm not a big fan of cabaret anyway

[04:53]

heh

[08:46]

<Dark_Aurel>

Hi everybody!

[08:48]

<Dark_Aurel>

Is anyone alive?;) Can anyone provide me some help in building OSD environment?

[08:48]

<Dark_Aurel>

I've read wiki.neurostechnology.com

[08:49]

<Dark_Aurel>

At the chapter "The First Compile" i've come up to pathing the sources tree using fakeroot patch

[08:50]

<Dark_Aurel>

And it failed.

[08:50]

<Dark_Aurel>

Does anyone has any ideas?...

[08:50]

<[g2]>

Dark_Aurel I haven't tried in a while, but I think there's a new VM ware based environment

[08:53]

Does anybody knows authors personally ? Just want to ask them a few questions regarding their...code ;)

[08:54]

<Dark_Aurel>

[g2]: VMWare?... What for?... Explain please. I use Linux on my host machine if you're spaking about running Linux under VMWare...

[08:55]

<[g2]>

Dark_Aurel my understanding is it's a fully pre-built scratch box environment with all the libraries necessary to link apps

[08:55]

<[g2]>

so bacically, you just boot it and then start building you apps

[08:56]

<[g2]>

the other option is to go 99.8% open-souce and build stuff from scratch

[08:56]

<[g2]>

the 0.2% are the binary included from SVN for the proprietary stuff

[08:57]

<[g2]>

crweb ping

[08:57]

<Dark_Aurel>

No-no-no.. I want to build Neuros firmware on my machine using cross-compiler and then boot my OSD using this built environment by NFS.

[08:57]

<Dark_Aurel>

nerochiaro: Good day! Are you here?...

[08:58]

<[g2]>

Dark_Aurel check with crweb or on the wiki

[08:58]

give me some minutes, i'm fairly busy now. i'll get back in a moment

[08:58]

<[g2]>

I think the vmware image my povide an nfs server too

[08:58]

<[g2]>

s/my/may/

[09:00]

[g2]: it does

[09:00]

<Dark_Aurel>

[g2]: this wiki: wiki.neurostechnology.com

[09:00]

<Dark_Aurel>

?

[09:00]

<Dark_Aurel>

crweb, are you here?...

[09:00]

<crweb>

Dark_Aurel: the vmware image already has all of that done

[09:01]

<crweb>

Dark_Aurel: and is setup so you can start compilling other apps

[09:01]

<crweb>

if you want to compile it all yourself, then do whats on that guide

[09:02]

<Dark_Aurel>

Hm...

[09:02]

<Dark_Aurel>

Where i can find vmware image?

[09:02]

Dark_Aurel: if you want to build stuff without the VM that crweb is suggesting, i would just do what the guide say, and at the point were you are now stop following the guide and use the new build script that Neuros has put into neuros-bsp

[09:02]

it works quite well for me

[09:03]

<crweb>

www.tektronic.org

[09:03]

crweb: oh cool, someone mirrored that ?

[09:03]

<Dark_Aurel>

nerochiaro, ok, i'll try.

[09:03]

<Dark_Aurel>

Thnx.

[09:03]

* crweb got some non neuros friends to do some hosting :)

[09:04]

nice

[09:04]

so no more getting people mad with bittorrent

[09:04]

<Dark_Aurel>

Btw, does anyone know who write the main-app code?... And Cooler library?...

[09:04]

<crweb>

he said unlimited badnwidth so

[09:04]

<crweb>

Dark_Aurel: neuros does

[09:05]

Dark_Aurel: if you have specific questions i can help you, but not in general

[09:05]

<Dark_Aurel>

crweb, neurostechnology?...

[09:05]

Dark_Aurel: other than that, use the source

[09:05]

<crweb>

Dark_Aurel: yeah the people that make the OSD

[09:06]

<Dark_Aurel>

nerochiaro, i've a look at sources of main-app... they are terrible...

[09:06]

Dark_Aurel: why ?

[09:06]

* crweb is off to have a fun day. See you all in +24 hours.

[09:06]

crweb: enjoy!

[09:06]

<[g2]>

have fun crweb

[09:07]

<Dark_Aurel>

good bye, crweb

[09:08]

<Dark_Aurel>

nerochiaro, there are lots of static functions. Code isn't commented well...

[09:08]

code is commented very bad, yes. what's wrong with static functions ?

[09:11]

nerochiaro : code is a quite spaghetti-like, isn't it ? It seems to lack structure at all...

[09:12]

too many strange constructions, like holding 64-bit integers in a char[21] string...

[09:12]

jtootf: the code of osdmain or of the cooler library ?

[09:12]

nerochiaro : osdmain mainly...

[09:13]

it's a bit of a patchwork

[09:13]

nerochiaro : regarding Cooler library I've looked only upon storage.c(.h) yet...

[09:15]

nerochiaro : patchwork maybe. but I fear that it has broken out of any design structures. it's my own opinion, but reading this code is like crawling through hard debris...

[09:18]

well, i don't find it that painful, but sure it is not pretty either. spaghetti, patchwork, call it what you like, i think comes from the fact that there are several devs working on it with no central coding standard in place

[09:19]

btw, does anybody knows what's about C++ compiling for Neuros OSD ?

[09:20]

is it possible ? what are restrictions of the platform ?

[09:21]

jtootf: crweb has QT running, that is C++, so it's definitely possible

[09:21]

nerochiaro : good news ;) so does anybody knows of projects wrapping existing firmware to OO design ?

[09:22]

none

[09:22]

sticking to C and moving to a more OO design might be good, but i don't see that happening in the short term. that's just my opinion, eh

[09:22]

<Dark_Aurel>

it's sad...

[09:23]

well folks, if you say that osdmain code is ugly, put down concrete suggestions or patches to improve it

[09:24]

nerochiaro : :)))

[09:25]

nerochiaro : I'd like to rewrite it from sratch now :-| because it's almost impossible to just patch things I want to patch...

[09:25]

jtootf: you mean you don't have a single area that you might start improving and then spread out to cover others ?

[09:26]

hi all

[09:27]

nerochiaro : IMHO it needs to be redisigned. it's impossible to change interface of some part of firmware and don't change other parts as well...

[09:28]

nerochiaro : you see, it just my opinion after some workarounds in the code. It takes a lot of time just to understand how and _why_ some parts of code are written...

[09:28]

nerochiaro : no centralisation. any patch involves a couple of files and modules...

[09:29]

jtootf: it doesn't see very hard to me to find out what does what in that code. it's not textbook design but sure it's not that hard to understand either

[09:29]

as for being in need of a complete rewrite... even if we agree... how would you go making that happen ?

[09:30]

* JoeBorn breaks into "refactoring song"

[09:32]

<anders_>

JoeBorn: Did I miss anything interesting in the lunch-with-gao meeting?

[09:32]

* anders_ was out of town.

[09:33]

anders_: lots of talks about how to have non-osdmain programs running under some form of WM, mainly

[09:34]

<anders_>

nerochiaro: Interesting.. Just talk, or any good ideas/desicions?

[09:34]

nerochiaro : maybe it's hard for me due to lack C coding experience... but nontheless. as for rewriting I will thought about it anyway but not before I understand how everything works now...

[09:35]

anders_: well, the most promising so far seems to allow in the short term only other nano-x based programs. nano-x has provisions to build some kind of WM for such programs rather easily

[09:35]

it seems

[09:36]

the idea of trying some stripped version of xfree was also vented

[09:36]

<anders_>

What is the performance hit of running nano-x in client/server mode?

[09:37]

jtootf: well, i am not against it in principle, it's a worth goal. but the codebase is already pretty big and still a moving target.

[09:37]

anders_: i'm not sure, i have not tried that

[09:37]

<anders_>

nerochiaro: I mean, it is not ligthning fast as it is...

[09:38]

anders_: that might be more a problem of how it's used than of the nanox itself

[09:39]

<anders_>

Right...

[09:39]

<anders_>

I'd love to have oprofile running on the osd..

[09:40]

some profiling tool would really help indeed

[09:41]

hi anders_, sorry just stepped away

[09:46]

amazon really needs a "this is a gift, don't reccomend more stuff like this!" button

[09:55]

JoeBorn: did you have a football-watching time yesterday ?

[09:55]

JoeBorn: a good one, i mean

[09:56]

well, not too good, but there's always next year

[09:57]

there's also wood alchool

[09:57]

Long gone are the days of the Fridge I guess.

[09:58]

wow, the Fridge, I was 16 when they won with the Fridge!

[09:58]

nero: Or Absynthe in this neck of the woods!

[09:59]

theolodian: that works too

[09:59]

Joe: Sounds about right for me too.

[10:00]

<crweb>

jtootf: its not hard at all

[10:00]

nero: not everywhere, at least legally ;)

[10:00]

<crweb>

jtootf: i do it every day

[10:00]

theolodian: seems pretty legal around here

[10:01]

<crweb>

jtootf: everything seems to be to pretty much be in the right place, and what I feel is not, I move to the right place.

[10:01]

yeah, absynth isn't legal in the US for whatever reason.

[10:01]

nero: Yeah, and my mates make sure that I stay well aware of that fact! %)

[10:02]

JoeBorn: theolodian: i don't see why it's not. it's just a strong liquor basically

[10:02]

<crweb>

nerochiaro: hallucinogens are illegal

[10:02]

maybe the stuff that we call absynthe here isn't the same then. it's definitely not hallucinogen

[10:03]

unless being drunk is being called hallucinogen nowadays

[10:04]

<crweb>

nerochiaro: its made from wormwood

[10:05]

<crweb>

I have a bottle of Pernod Fils

[10:07]

<crweb>

Thujone isn't quite as dangerous as its reputation, the laws just never got reversed

[10:07]

am I not getting most of this conversation on my screen?

[10:08]

crweb: it's definitely the same suff then and it's definitely legal in here. and maybe it's just me, but i've never had any effect from that stuff that is worse than alchool

[10:08]

<crweb>

drink more

[10:08]

crweb: touche!

[10:09]

<crweb>

nerochiaro: there are mixed studies, some say it does some say it doesn't

[10:10]

On the topic of hallucinations, is anyone else getting messed up video recordings?

[10:10]

crweb: maybe depends much on the person too

[10:10]

<crweb>

nerochiaro: and social setting

[10:11]

level of desperation? ;)

[10:11]

<crweb>

you probably find the number of people that have "hallucinations" is equiv to the number of people in the room that believe it does.

[10:11]

ah, indeed. common to most drugs

[10:11]

* jtootf has returned

[10:12]

ah, placebo effect

[10:12]

<crweb>

I have never experienced such a thing

[10:12]

btw does anybody knows is there a doc for widgets used in default firmware ?

[10:12]

<crweb>

jtootf: its called Ncooler

[10:13]

jtootf: other than the source for Ncooler, no

[10:13]

crweb : thank you, I'll look on it then... btw, what's about Qt workarounds ?

[10:14]

<crweb>

no workarounds really, I had to write drivers

[10:14]

<crweb>

they will be out soon

[10:15]

crweb : and "Rasterman Neuros OSD GUI ID" ? I've found this using google... good to hear about drivers. wish you luck in development :)

[10:15]

<crweb>

what is that?

[10:15]

jtootf: raster is not working on it anymore. but i'm reviving the idea of using enlightenment on the OSD

[10:16]

<crweb>

I don't think i was around when raster was here

[10:17]

<crweb>

rasterman as in rasterman from E ?

[10:17]

crweb: yes

[10:17]

<crweb>

neat

[10:17]

<crweb>

he's both one of the most famous, and one of the most "people are annoyed at"

[10:17]

crweb: he wanted to make a version of his rage media player to run on the osd. but seems never had the time

[10:19]

crweb: heh, why annoyed at ?

[10:19]

<crweb>

the wait list for e17

[10:20]

<crweb>

many of us still wait the day when we can actually use the next version of E

[10:20]

<crweb>

don't know if it will ever be as popular as it once was

[10:20]

ah that, CVS of e17 it's been completely usable for at least 2 years now. i'm actually using it as my day to day desktop without a problem

[10:20]

<crweb>

if you can get it to build ;)

[10:21]

there are scripts that make the whole build a piece of cake. and i really mean it

[10:21]

<crweb>

its been a few months since i tried

[10:22]

crweb: look for easy_e17 script. should have it up and running quickly

[10:23]

btw, I'm currently using e17 on my computer with Gentoo GNU/Linux ;)

[10:23]

works :)

[10:23]

<crweb>

i think he tried to bite off to much

[10:24]

that's what i'm saying. i really never understood why they don't release it now

[10:24]

then improve later

[10:24]

to hell API freeze

[10:24]

<crweb>

why didn't he just improve as releases went on like the rest of the world

[10:24]

<crweb>

thats the major annoyance

[10:25]

i agree, but who know what goes on in their head

[11:40]

<Dark_Aurel>

crweb, can you describe current status of porting qt4 to OSD?...

[11:41]

<crweb>

it works?, I've been using it for months

[11:41]

<crweb>

www.limesg.com

[11:41]

<Dark_Aurel>

crweb, cool. May you give me any information regarding how to build it?...

[11:42]

<crweb>

well, you'll need input drivers, which I haven't ported to the new input system

[11:42]

<crweb>

but other than that, its pretty straight forward

[11:42]

<crweb>

I will have a guide, and a package for the virtual machine soon

[11:43]

<Dark_Aurel>

Nice news...

[11:44]

<crweb>

with qt, you don't really worry about anything at all

[11:44]

<crweb>

you just qmake, make and then copy your binary over

[11:45]

<crweb>

i'm writing the window manager/desktop manager right now

[11:45]

<crweb>

it will read icon/description files, and launch other peoples apps

[11:48]

<Dark_Aurel>

i know, i've written soft using qt=) Btw, you using qt4 or qtopia core?...

[11:49]

<Dark_Aurel>

*are you using

[11:54]

<crweb>

they are teh same

[11:54]

<crweb>

but qtopia

[11:55]

<crweb>

only difference is, qtopia offers a graphics server

[12:04]

<Dark_Aurel>

Hm...

[12:04]

<Dark_Aurel>

I'm downloading Qtopia Core sources now... I'm going to look at them more close;)...

[12:35]

anyone ever had gcc crashing with "internal compiler error" messages ?

[12:42]

<Dark_Aurel>

i had

[12:43]

<Dark_Aurel>

nerochiaro, what exactly the message you get?...

[12:43]

<Dark_Aurel>

does anyone know itfb.ko is prorietary module or there are its sources somewhere?...

[12:44]

Dark_Aurel: internal compiler error: in verify_local_live_at_start, at flow.c:546

[12:44]

Please submit a full bug report,

[12:44]

with preprocessed source if appropriate.

[12:44]

Send email to arm-gcc@codesourcery.com for instructions.

[12:46]

Dark_Aurel: and itfb.ko is a proprietary framebuffer driver

[12:46]

<Dark_Aurel>

it's a bug in gcc. It's gcc from Neuros SVN?...

[12:46]

no, it's the one in scratchbox

[12:46]

<Dark_Aurel>

nerochiaro, it's very sad...

[12:46]

<Dark_Aurel>

nerochiaro, hmm...

[12:46]

<Dark_Aurel>

nerochiaro: what optimization was enabled during build the gcc?...

[12:47]

* Dark_Aurel will be back in 20 minutes

[12:47]

Dark_Aurel: what you need the itfb source for ?

[12:47]

Dark_Aurel: during the build of gcc or during the build with gcc ?

[13:03]

* Dark_Aurel has come back

[13:03]

<Dark_Aurel>

nerochiaro: both builds;)

[13:04]

<Dark_Aurel>

nerochiaro: does itfb provide output to TV?

[13:04]

the one of gcc i have no idea. the other i can check

[13:04]

Dark_Aurel: no, it provides only the framebuffer

[13:04]

<Dark_Aurel>

check please.

[13:05]

<Dark_Aurel>

nerochiaro: so, how TV output is made?...

[13:11]

TV is another layer, that is driven by a separate chip and the DSP chip feeds it. then framebuffer is overlaid on it

[13:11]

at least as far as i know

[13:27]

<Dark_Aurel>

ok... so, everything painted to fb is shown on the TV?

[13:31]

yes, unless the fb is turned off

[13:33]

<Dark_Aurel>

ok. It's good. But color depth is still unknown?...;)

[13:34]

<Dark_Aurel>

crweb, are you still here?

[13:34]

16bit

[13:34]

<Dark_Aurel>

Ok. Thnx

[13:34]

<Dark_Aurel>

Continuing building Qtopia Core=)

[16:03]

<Dark_Aurel>

Hi all again!

[16:03]

hej

[16:04]

<Dark_Aurel>

nerochiaro, oh, it's very good you are here;)

[16:05]

JoeBorn: you around ?

[16:05]

<Dark_Aurel>

nerochiaro, is there any documentation about programming IR Remote except the sources?...

[16:05]

Dark_Aurel: what do you mean with "programming IR remote" ?

[16:06]

<Dark_Aurel>

nerochiaro: oh, sorry. I mean "getting codes of pressed key"? Do i need to poll some device in /dev?

[16:07]

<Dark_Aurel>

i built qtopia, and i'm going to write input plugin for Remote Control (may be i use wrong term?)...

[16:08]

Dark_Aurel: you have two ways. one is to read /dev/neuros_ir, the other is to read /dev/input/event0 (you might need to create this node). i suggest the second option, since it's a more standard way and there's documentation for it

[16:09]

<Dark_Aurel>

nerochiaro, i think so too. so, ir module puts information to /dev/input/event0 in "usual kernel way"?

[16:09]

Dark_Aurel: yes, it should

[16:10]

<Dark_Aurel>

nerochiaro, thnx, i'll try...

[16:10]

if it doesn't please tell me so i can fix that

[16:11]

<Dark_Aurel>

nerochiaro, thnx. btw, the trouble is entering text using IR. There is a method like usual mobile phone. But it may break Qtopia object model...

[16:11]

<Dark_Aurel>

nerochiaro, but i'll try...

[16:12]

i'm not familiar with qtopia, sorry. if you have trouble with the IR driver i can help, but with qtopia not really much

[16:12]

this is a good article on how to read from that device if you need one: www.linuxjournal.com

[16:13]

check the paragraph "Retrieving Input from (and to) the Device"

[16:13]

<Dark_Aurel>

Yes, i found doc in kernel-tree Documentation.

[16:13]

ok

[16:14]

<Dark_Aurel>

There is the file named "input/input.txt". there're enough doc. Thnx

[16:14]

<Dark_Aurel>

But the article is intresting... Thnx

[16:14]

you're welcome

[16:14]

i just pointed it out since it helped me a lot when i was fixing that driver

[16:18]

<Dark_Aurel>

btw, i'm currently working at some project which is based on Neuros OSD. Me and jtootf (he was on the channel today). We are going to makeour firmware with Qtopia and new osdmain.

[16:18]

<Dark_Aurel>

if our client allow us we'll public everything.

[16:18]

cool, but check out also crweb. he's is doing the same thing

[16:18]

<Dark_Aurel>

I think he should allow, bcs everything is under GPL

[16:19]

Dark_Aurel: is that an internal project, or some device you want to sell to the public ?

[16:20]

<Dark_Aurel>

nerochiaro: i don't know exactly now, sorry... But we're going to implement live video/audio streaming, UPnP Media Renderer functionality, so on...

[16:21]

cool. and you will use the neuros OSD as hardware or another device that uses the DM320 ?

[16:21]

<Dark_Aurel>

Neuros OSD.

[16:23]

well, if your client will sell the product, he must release the source because of GPL. if he wants to keep the device for himself, then he doesn't need to release anything. but i think it doesn't make sense not to sell it :)

[16:24]

<Dark_Aurel>

Btw later may be we'll create our own hardware, and if so occur, i want to create Open device. Open like 537 STAMP.

[16:24]

<Dark_Aurel>

=)

[16:24]

start with OSD for now :)

[16:24]

<Dark_Aurel>

Yes, i think so too.

[16:25]

<Dark_Aurel>

Sorry for slow answers - my English is not-so-well...

[16:25]

no problem. i'm not a native english speaker too

[16:25]

<Dark_Aurel>

btw, where are you from? if it's not a secret...

[16:26]

<Dark_Aurel>

Italy?

[16:26]

not a secret. i'm from italy

[16:26]

<Dark_Aurel>

=)

[16:26]

<Dark_Aurel>

I looked at your IP;)

[16:26]

<Dark_Aurel>

I'm from Ukraine...

[16:26]

<Dark_Aurel>

But i don't like Ukrainian - i like Russian language;)

[16:27]

i can't speak any of them, so i don't know :)

[16:27]

<Dark_Aurel>

=)

[16:28]

<Dark_Aurel>

Ok, i'll continue solving issues with Qtopia. May i mail you if some questions around drivers occur?...

[16:28]

Dark_Aurel: of course

[16:29]

you already have my email address, i think

[16:30]

<Dark_Aurel>

Yes, and you have my one too, i think...

[16:30]

<Dark_Aurel>

;)

[16:30]

yes

[16:57]

hmm, anyone knows why i get "no such device or address" when i try to use /dev/tty0 ?

[17:01]

just happened suddenly I guess?

[17:12]

JoeBorn: what ?

[17:17]

crweb: you around ?

[17:19]

<Dark_Aurel>

i think - no;)

[17:20]

<Dark_Aurel>

=)

[17:26]

<crweb>

i have arrived

[17:27]

<crweb>

why you trying to use tty0?

[17:27]

i'm messing with X, trying to push the idea to see how far it goes before collapsing in a pile of vomit

[17:28]

i've built an x server, and trying to make it start up

[17:28]

but want /dev/tty0 which gives that error

[17:31]

<crweb>

this is going to sound odd

[17:31]

<crweb>

but you need to tell it to grab /dev/ttyS0

[17:32]

<crweb>

not sure

[17:32]

<crweb>

(for the next question)

[17:32]

yeah, i thought about it, and yes, the question is just that

[17:34]

i fear a symlink won't work

[17:34]

<crweb>

on a lighter note, my linux os teacher and i got into it today, and after showing him up a few times he backed off told when when the tests would be and that I don't need to come to class anymore

[17:34]

<crweb>

told me when the

[17:35]

<crweb>

i wonder how that even happens... me is no where near when

[17:35]

<crweb>

symlink might work

[17:35]

<crweb>

not a good solution though