[00:54]	<JoeBorn>	crweb, you there?
[01:56]	<crweb>	JoeBorn: yo
[04:11]	<JoeBorn>	hi all
[04:11]	<JoeBorn>	nerochiaro, you there?
[04:24]	<daurnimator>	hey JoeBorn
[04:27]	<JoeBorn>	daurnimator, do you understand enough about the package management system issues to explain it to a new neuros developer
[04:27]	<JoeBorn>	?
[04:27]	<daurnimator>	issues?
[04:27]	<daurnimator>	is it even invented yet?
[04:27]	<JoeBorn>	that the rootcramfs is read only.
[04:28]	<JoeBorn>	no, a found a guy that wants to help with that.
[04:28]	<JoeBorn>	but it's clear that its not that simple, given the current structure.
[04:28]	<daurnimator>	no sorry, i don't know the whole of it
[04:28]	<daurnimator>	i'd accidently omit something
[04:28]	<daurnimator>	and cause issues later
[04:29]	<JoeBorn>	well, I'm just looking for an overview at this point.
[04:29]	<daurnimator>	nerochiaro should be here pretty soon
[04:29]	<daurnimator>	i think you should wait a little bit
[04:30]	<daurnimator>	btw, when did jack chen leave - i just talked to him on msn, and he said he wasn't with neuros any longer
[04:30]	<JoeBorn>	he left about a month ago, I guess.
[04:56]	<JoeBorn>	hi all, meet hellwolf
[04:57]	<hellwolf>	Hi all
[04:57]	<JoeBorn>	I've been aggressively recruiting him to our community
[04:58]	<JoeBorn>	he has his own package management/built system that he's interested in trying to port to the OSD.
[04:58]	<JoeBorn>	is anyone awake?
[04:58]	<hellwolf>	There's more people than #fedora-cn, I noticed, :)
[04:59]	<JoeBorn>	yes, but most of them are probably asleep, it's middle of the night in the US.
[04:59]	<JoeBorn>	daurnimator, you still there?
[04:59]	<daurnimator>	yeah
[04:59]	<daurnimator>	hi hellwolf
[04:59]	<hellwolf>	hi daurnimator
[04:59]	<hellwolf>	JoeBorn, All from US?
[05:00]	<daurnimator>	god no
[05:00]	<JoeBorn>	daurnimator, I know you said you don't know the details, but do you know the basic things, like the fact that the rootcramfs is read only, etc.
[05:00]	<JoeBorn>	nerochiaro came up with that unionfs system, but I honestly don't know enough even to begin the explanation.
[05:01]	<JoeBorn>	I just know, talking to Gao that we can't really use a package manager without some significant changes..
[05:02]	<hellwolf>	Huh, I think in embed world, there's only PM before everything flux into the RO rootfs, right?
[05:03]	<JoeBorn>	well, I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but right now, there is essentially only one package for the whole system
[05:04]	<JoeBorn>	a upk file contains everything from the uboot bootloader to the kernel to the application
[05:04]	<JoeBorn>	that's what we're trying to fix.
[05:04]	<JoeBorn>	it's like you re-install the whole system everytime you upgrade.
[05:07]	<hellwolf>	Ok. I want to know what's the build system now you use? How do you organize the build script and the dependency between them
[05:07]	<JoeBorn>	daurnimator, can you help me here?
[05:08]	<daurnimator>	ok
[05:08]	<daurnimator>	currently there is just one big build script
[05:08]	<JoeBorn>	you can start, by looking here I believe
[05:08]	<JoeBorn>	wiki.neurostechnology.com
[05:09]	<hellwolf>	ONE BIG BUILD SCRIPT?
[05:09]	<daurnimator>	well
[05:09]	<daurnimator>	one build script
[05:09]	<daurnimator>	that calls all the other small build scripts
[05:09]	<daurnimator>	i think you should look at that wiki link above
[05:09]	<hellwolf>	Ok
[05:09]	<daurnimator>	and try to get that all set up
[05:09]	<daurnimator>	also, try the vm image
[05:10]	<hellwolf>	I do not have a unit currently, sorry
[05:12]	<JoeBorn>	wiki.neurostechnology.com
[05:12]	<hellwolf>	Ur.. the wiki page is empty
[05:12]	<hellwolf>	This one's ok
[05:13]	<JoeBorn>	hmm, both show for me.
[05:14]	<hellwolf>	So, the problem now is that, system use a big image for evertything, and a upgrade needs reload another big image?
[05:15]	<daurnimator>	yes
[05:15]	<daurnimator>	we need a pkg manager to load up user apps etc
[05:16]	<daurnimator>	as well as MAYBE kernel updates etc in future
[05:16]	<daurnimator>	- i was looking at ipkg
[05:16]	<daurnimator>	but others have said no
[05:17]	<daurnimator>	hellwolf: where abouts are you located?
[05:17]	<hellwolf>	The storage use NOR-flash or SD/Multimedia Card or what? Sorry I'm not family with many things here
[05:17]	<hellwolf>	daurnimator, China
[05:17]	<daurnimator>	you're in xiamen with neuros?
[05:18]	<daurnimator>	there is only flash
[05:18]	<hellwolf>	daurnimator, no, I'm in mainland
[05:18]	<daurnimator>	SD, CF etc is removable - and therefore can't be relied on
[07:43]	<nerochiaro>	hellwolf: still there ?
[07:44]	<hellwolf>	ye
[07:45]	<nerochiaro>	just came online now. did you need some more info, or did the others explain all you need already ?
[07:50]	<hellwolf>	nerochiaro, enough to start maybe, thanks. Then how can I get the "free unit" to hack on?
[07:52]	<nerochiaro>	hmm, i don't think neuros gives out "free units" to everyone who asks
[07:54]	<hellwolf>	I see, so what's the next step?
[07:59]	<nerochiaro>	hellwolf: well, i think probably buying one
[08:54]	<JoeBorn>	hi all
[09:49]	<daurnimator>	JoeBorn: bed time!
[09:49]	<daurnimator>	JoeBorn: any progress on h263?
[12:14]	<crweb>	hello
[12:15]	<nerochiaro>	crweb: hej. done taking care of your life ?
[12:15]	<crweb>	not really, takin a break though
[12:16]	<nerochiaro>	see you won a prize in the meantime ?
[12:16]	<crweb>	oh?
[12:16]	<nerochiaro>	odnt
[12:17]	<crweb>	hah
[12:17]	<crweb>	speaking of which, we got the permissions problem solved finally
[12:18]	<nerochiaro>	ah, the ones on the rootfs files ?
[12:18]	<crweb>	yeah, someone messed up the package and didn't actually give us the same root.cramfs as the one in the upk
[12:20]	<crweb>	as soon as my default machine is done untar'ing I'll have the real update
[12:20]	<nerochiaro>	fixed for .69 then
[12:20]	<crweb>	.63 should have been reuploaded
[12:20]	<nerochiaro>	should be, or should've been already ?
[12:20]	<crweb>	should have been. I never checked though
[12:21]	<crweb>	let me pack one up for 0.69, and repack the vm, and will be available today
[12:23]	<nerochiaro>	i have dinner ready, be back later
[13:25]	<theolodian>	nero, u there?
[13:35]	<nerochiaro>	theolodian: aye ?
[13:42]	<theolodian>	since the 442/N3 isn't really an active project, what would you suggest as a protable video/AAC music player? I want something with a larger screen than the video iPod, and the Zune has terrible controls.
[13:42]	<nerochiaro>	frankly, i have no idea
[13:43]	<nerochiaro>	i have not been looking aroung much lately
[13:43]	<nerochiaro>	on that front
[13:43]	<theolodian>	hat's cool
[13:43]	<theolodian>	that's
[13:49]	<theolodian>	I do hope that there are more options in that area soon. It does affect the market for the OSD as well.
[13:50]	<nerochiaro>	well, if the n3 was an option now it would've been all to our advantage
[13:59]	<chreekat>	mmm n3
[14:04]	<theolodian>	One threat to the OSD is that many of these players also record.
[14:09]	<nerochiaro>	well, the osd has some more stuff than those you mentioned
[14:09]	<nerochiaro>	it's another kind of gadget actually
[14:09]	<theolodian>	True, but Archos and others have players with screens that also record, internal HD, WiFi, etc.
[14:10]	<theolodian>	That is a lot of overlap
[14:10]	<nerochiaro>	sure, competition is there
[14:10]	<chreekat>	hmm, I've never seen "template <typename T>" in a C++ template class/method definition, only "template <class T>". What's the diff?
[14:11]	<nerochiaro>	crweb: maybe they are templates for primitive types (int, char, etc ?)
[14:11]	<nerochiaro>	but then again c++ templates always messed up my head pretty bad
[14:12]	<chreekat>	yeah me too; the only C++ I know is from the two classes in which it was the required langugae
[14:13]	* chreekat  googles
[14:13]	<chreekat>	haha
[14:13]	<chreekat>	"The only difference between both prototypes is the use of either the keyword class or the keyword typename. Its use is indistinct, since both expressions have exactly the same meaning and behave exactly the same way."
[14:14]	<chreekat>	I'm looking at the xmms plugin called imms and planning on rewriting it for xmms2
[14:15]	<chreekat>	imms in in c++
[14:17]	<nerochiaro>	pff, that's C++ for you
[14:18]	<nerochiaro>	i'm off, see in a day
[14:18]	<theolodian>	8r
[14:18]	<chreekat>	nerochiaro: exactly, boo on c++. See ya
[14:18]	<theolodian>	l8r
[14:39]	<crweb>	the syntax has changed
[14:39]	<crweb>	its not longer template<class T>
[14:41]	<crweb>	dang it;
[14:41]	<crweb>	i can't find a reference
[14:41]	<crweb>	but I ran into that recently
[14:42]	<chreekat>	crweb: He miss-autocompleted your name (meant to be me) :)
[14:42]	<crweb>	i know
[14:42]	<chreekat>	ah
[14:43]	<chreekat>	So it's not a case of "either works", but rather that 'class' is deprecated?
[14:45]	<crweb>	I can't remember which it is now.
[14:45]	<chreekat>	heh
[14:45]	<chreekat>	I was taught "class" in .. hmm.. 2002 I think
[14:46]	<crweb>	i think typename T is the new way
[14:46]	<crweb>	cause class would emply it would "have to be a class"
[14:46]	<chreekat>	I could understand that. Exactly
[14:46]	<crweb>	but infact it can be any type
[15:34]	<vmarks>	nerochiaro
[15:36]	<vmarks>	hello joey
[19:55]	<crweb>	Updated vmware development image
[19:55]	<crweb>	www.limesg.com
[21:05]	<JoeBorn>	wow, peppy sat night discussion on #neuros