Log from #neuros IRC channel

nerochiaro: sorry, I missed your ping about 20hrs ago. I'll be online for a little while starting now.

nerochiaro: a while back you suggested I could flag down an admin to be able to commit code... I think to svn.neurosaudio.com I don't know who is an admin of that.

[02:36]

yahoo, I think I understand joins now. and I discovered unions, too!

[02:36]

finally making progress on one of the zillions of half-started projects I toy with

[02:38]

(this one is a finance manager, since I want something that is full-featured but not gigantic with an ZOTB (zillions of tiny buttons) interface)

[02:38]

DB stuff? I'm glad I learned DB a while back (not part of my schooling). changed my perspective on how to develop.

[02:38]

I just used 'zillions' twice in a row. I think I will go to bed no

[02:38]

w

[02:39]

yeah, I didn't learn any in school either. I started learning some for work, and then learned more while trying to come up with a schema and selects for my project

[02:49]

<Ycros>

chreekat: woot, databases

[02:49]

* Ycros likes databases

[02:56]

sourcerror: admins that i know of are Xorlev, srobertson, derobert, DeepB. Not sure which one of them can help you on that though

[02:58]

Thanks... now that you have all their attention I'll ask my question :)

[02:58]

may1937: i've quickly looked at the MVC example in the ideas page, i think it's ok (but move it down the page in a an examples section, i think it's better to keep that list as bullet-point as possible)

[02:59]

(I guess I'll use email though)

[03:02]

sourcerror: about that refactoring page. the last point in osdmain section, you think it should stay ?

[03:04]

indentation? I didn't add that. or one of the other items?

[03:06]

oh, you mean remove the entire item "a few coding consistencies we can agree on"?

[03:06]

no, i mean "a few coding consistencies" in osdmain section. you added that, i added a comment, may1937 added that final indentation thing

[03:06]

er, yes

[03:06]

the last thing you said

[03:06]

let me explain a little and you can tell me what you think then...

[03:08]

(give me a second, trying to compose explanation)

[03:10]

So I'm working on a prototype refactoring of osdmain to enable: loadable modules, multi app architecture (Gao calls this WM), and other low level refactors which some probably belong in cooler

[03:10]

it's not "gao calls this wm", it's that a multi-app arch needs a WM-like thing to manage the multiple apps, no ?

[03:11]

with a multi sub-app arch I need to have some API for the sub-apps to call which does not really belong in cooler, it belongs in a "lower half" of what is currently osdmain.

[03:11]

this osdmain core API is what I meant by the comment on the refactoring page.

[03:11]

it should have a prefix because sub-apps will make calls into it to register things.

[03:12]

I just don't like calling it WM because WM carries baggage. you end up having ot explain to people what it is not.

[03:13]

...so, what do you think?

[03:13]

oh, ok, i see. in "Gao-speak" WM is the multip-app thing, and your "lower half" is called the "desktop app" (which will be basically the current "main menu" of osdmain

[03:14]

now, i agree there will need to be a way to register items in this "desktop menu" or whatever we call it.

[03:14]

yea, I know we should't debate over naming. but yea that's it.

[03:14]

right.

[03:15]

so maybe the line item belongs up with those comments or maybe the general rule is that any module used by others needs a prefix.

[03:15]

however this can be done in another way aside of inter-app calls to register things. the desktop app can simply read a config file that describes which apps are available and build the menu from that

[03:17]

you are right. I did consider having it read config files. I think you could go either way.

[03:18]

I actually wasted some time trying to come up with an XML format for menus and then realized I could prove ideas out faster with the API first. since it had to be implemented anyway in some form.

[03:19]

but I see what you mean. you can create a world where the sub-app never calls back into osdmain code.

[03:21]

sourcerror: i'd say go ahead with that, but let's not put it as an item in there. let's see how Gao goes with that WM/desktop thing first, then if it sucks let's make it better ?

[03:22]

OK. Why not just make it a more general line item... modules used by someone else need a prefix

[03:22]

so it is not cooler specific either.

[03:24]

<DeepB>

nerochiaro: hi! you made a X .upk for me?

[03:25]

DeepB: i can do that, but X doesn't work right now

[03:25]

DeepB: do you know how I can commit code to my own sandbox in svn.neurosaudio.com

[03:26]

<DeepB>

what a pity :(

[03:26]

sourcerror: ok, but it's still more of a library-related thing i think. applications calling each other do that via IPC anyway no ?

[03:26]

...I mean I don't have an "account" which I guess I need.

[03:27]

DeepB: yes. i have not give up yet, but we need to get the framebuffer fixed first, i think

[03:28]

<DeepB>

nerochiaro: aha

[03:30]

<DeepB>

sourcerror: what? there is no /hackers/sourcerror directory

[03:30]

nerochiaro: I see sub-apps communicating through IPC to each other but not if they want to make a call: osdUICore_addScreen(screenId, screenConfig)

[03:30]

...to add their screen to a particular screen/form menu

[03:30]

sourcerror: and how would they make that call into the main app ?

[03:31]

the way I have it now... these osd main core functions are a library: libosduicore.so

[03:32]

so we're still talking libraries :)

[03:33]

where is the problem?

[03:35]

DeepB: I don't know really what it takes to be able to commit anything. if I have an OdNT blog account can I just try to write to /hackers/sourcerror?

[03:35]

<DeepB>

sourcerror: wait...

[03:36]

DeepB: by the way, I'm an old CVS person so I need to go figure out the SVN basics to get started (which I won't waste your time on now :)

[03:36]

I need to go study up :)

[03:38]

nerochiaro: anyway, I understand your point, with config files you can do it a different way. You'll just have to see my code when I commit it to show what I have in mind for functions in libosduicore.so that are needed by sub-apps. :)

[03:38]

sourcerror: there's no problem in having that as library. i'm just saying it doesn't belong to osdmain section :)

[03:39]

sourcerror: and that it's already in the other section anyway

[03:39]

I don't have osdmain anymore actually (I'm going to bore you with my partitioning)

[03:41]

it's: 1) libosduibase.so; 2) osd_ui (this is where the main() is, and it links in the osduibase; 3) sub-apps which also link in osduibase and ncooler if they use any functions from there

[03:46]

sourcerror: how does it work internally ? the fact that sub-apps call the library and the main app call the library, and the library manages the actual menu data ?

[03:46]

DeepB: I can ping you (or whoever you tell me to bother) later about the SVN. I should head to sleep... almost 2am for me and I have this annoying day job thing to go to in the morning. :)

[03:47]

sourcerror: good night

[03:48]

nerochiaro: most of the good stuff is in the osduibase.so to manage everything. what ends up in osd_ui main app is the top level screens/forms and...

[03:49]

sourcerror: i'll check it when you put it out somewhere, code is better than words anyway ;)

[03:49]

initiating the basics.

[03:50]

yea, seeing code will clear up a lot and let you poke holes in my ways!

[03:50]

sourcerror: indeed that is my motivation

[03:51]

I appreciate your input.

[03:52]

* sourcerror curses at self for staying up way too late as usual.

[03:52]

sourcerror: have some rest :)

[03:52]

sourcerror: can i just clean up that prefixes thing from the osdmain section on the wiki page ?

[03:53]

sourcerror: or just do it

[03:53]

I think you're right. Just remove it in the osdmain section. maybe move may1937 comments down to the other one.

[03:55]

* sourcerror zzzzzzzzz

[03:55]

sourcerror: already done. good dreams

y halo thar

anyone there?

nerochia1o: ?

hi JoeBorn

hi chreekat

I'm looking to finish what I started last night :)

[12:07]

hehe

[12:07]

I missed most of the discussion

[12:08]

Busy with The Simpsons and figuring out a DB schema for a finance manager

[12:18]

well, I netbooted the OSD with that wget (I believe) installed

[12:18]

where would I look for it?

[12:19]

(continuing appoligizies for my ignorance)

hi derobert_work

I found it.

wget works!

<[g2]>

JoeBorn congrats on the netboot

[12:36]

hey [g2]

[12:37]

I've been trying to get the NSLU2 going without much success!

[12:39]

<[g2]>

JoeBorn what have you been trying ?

[12:39]

well, for some reason my home network is set to use 192.168.2.xx

[12:40]

and so I can't seem to see the NSLU2 with it's default IP, so I can't login to change it, etc

[12:40]

<[g2]>

just get a ubuntu/knoppix livecd and boot that and set the IP addr on eth0

[12:41]

<[g2]>

you DL and burn CDs right ?

[12:41]

<[g2]>

ubuntu does mail them for free also :)

[12:43]

<[g2]>

JoeBorn will you be a round in about 30 minutes ?

[12:43]

<[g2]>

around

[12:44]

yep

[12:44]

it's not super urgent

[12:46]

<[g2]>

JoeBorn ok, be back soon

[13:31]

<crweb>

has anyone booted 0.81 yet?

[13:31]

<crweb>

I need to know what /etc/fstab says for tmpfs size=####

[13:52]

wow cleaning up the wiki is a daunting exercise

[15:04]

hi all

[15:21]

<sourcerror-m>

DeepB: the last thing you wrote when I asked about SVN /hackers area was... "wait...". Should I forget about it and find another place to host source code? Thanks.

[16:53]

cr-tablet: you there?

[16:53]

crweb: ?

[16:54]

<cr-tablet>

I am

[16:54]

I'm still struggling mightly with writing this up

[16:55]

<cr-tablet>

ok, wheres the problems at?

[16:55]

I guess the directory where I should untar is actually /scratchbox/users/neuros/targets/OSD

[16:55]

<cr-tablet>

no

[16:55]

<cr-tablet>

thats where the source installs to when you make install

[16:55]

<cr-tablet>

you want to untar in /srv/neuros-osd-rootfs which is where the osd reads from

[16:56]

<cr-tablet>

/scratchbox/users/neuros/targets/OSD is for scratchbox, /srv/neuros-osd-rootfs is for the OSD hardware

[16:57]

I see, and untarring to /srv/neuros-osd-rootfs will just add wget to all the other stuff already installed there?

[16:57]

<cr-tablet>

yes

[16:57]

<cr-tablet>

then you can run it on the osd

[16:59]

ok

[16:59]

so whole process is ./configure

[16:59]

then make

[16:59]

then sb-menu (which nukes something or the other old I guess)

[17:00]

then make-install

[17:00]

<cr-tablet>

the sb-menu steps remove stuff thats not part of wget from /scratchbox/users/neuros/targets/OSD

[17:00]

I guess after sb-menu nukes something then targets/OSD should be empty?

[17:01]

<cr-tablet>

so when you tar then untar it doesn't overwrite important stuff in /srv/neuros-osd-rootfs, only wget files are present

[17:02]

do I untar to srv/neuros-osd-rootfs or srv/neuros-osd-rootfs/usr?

[17:03]

<cr-tablet>

srv/neuros-osd-rootfs

[17:03]

<cr-tablet>

targets/OSD contains a full filesystem tree just like a real linux system

[17:03]

<cr-tablet>

consider it a vm, inside the vm

[17:04]

holy macarel

[17:05]

<cr-tablet>

thats why you have to reset

[17:05]

<cr-tablet>

target/OSD before you reset is a full arm based vm

[17:06]

how does reset know to keep the wget stuff?

[17:06]

<cr-tablet>

when you reset it clears out all the linux arm stuff, then when you make install the only thing present on the vm filesystem is wget's directory structure and files

[17:06]

<cr-tablet>

it doesn't. You make install, after you reset

[17:06]

<cr-tablet>

so wget installs to a blank filesystem

[17:07]

why is reset different than just deleting everything in there?

[17:07]

<cr-tablet>

reset lets scratchbox manage the filesystem

[17:07]

ok

[17:07]

<cr-tablet>

there are different kinds of resets

[17:07]

<cr-tablet>

that "one" just happens to remove everything

[17:08]

ok

[17:08]

<cr-tablet>

there are some that only remove scratchbox stuff

[17:08]

<cr-tablet>

so if you have say, samba and wget installed, they won't be removed

[17:08]

and the significance of the location is really just convention and path issues, i assume

[17:09]

<cr-tablet>

yes, i think

[17:09]

it appears that I can just copy that stuff to an SD card and run wget from SD

[17:09]

<cr-tablet>

yeah, with wget thats probably fine

[17:09]

<cr-tablet>

it doesn't really depend on anything

[17:09]

or is that only because wget is so simple that it doesn't have any dependencies (if that's te right term)

[17:10]

<cr-tablet>

something like samba server expect its files to be in specific locations

[17:10]

<cr-tablet>

yeah, wget doesn't have config files, libraries etc, all it is, is a program that runs

[17:10]

<[g2]>

it's just a simple web copy tool

[17:11]

I see

[17:11]

<[g2]>

hey JoeBorn

[17:11]

<[g2]>

hey cr-tablet

[17:11]

<cr-tablet>

howdy

[17:11]

[g2]: hi

[17:11]

* [g2] wonders which tablet crweb is on ?

[17:11]

<cr-tablet>

Toshiba Tecra M4 S435

[17:11]

well, so I'm doing two things here, one I'm trying to clean up the vm page so we can publicize it

[17:11]

<[g2]>

is that one of those flip top jobbies ?

[17:11]

<cr-tablet>

yep

[17:11]

<cr-tablet>

Convertable

[17:11]

<[g2]>

sweet

[17:12]

and second, I'm trying to do a little demo that shows how to run an app on the OSD

[17:13]

<cr-tablet>

[g2]: www.limesg.com

[17:13]

<cr-tablet>

[g2]: www.limesg.com

[17:14]

<[g2]>

I've always thought tablets were a good idea, just really damn expensive

[17:15]

<cr-tablet>

expensive?

[17:15]

<cr-tablet>

most of the time they are way better specs for much lower price than normal laptops

[17:15]

<[g2]>

yeah costly

[17:15]

<cr-tablet>

mine was $1499, and the "equiv" hardware dell at the time was $3200

[17:16]

<[g2]>

Umm my Gateway with nearly 1GB of RAM was like $650 out the door taxes, tags included

[17:16]

<cr-tablet>

is your gateway pci-x, sata, ddr2, nvidia 7200?

[17:16]

<[g2]>

I could have gotten 2 and still had enough for an xbox 360

[17:17]

<cr-tablet>

btw, my price was from feb 06

[17:17]

<[g2]>

mine was summer '05

[17:17]

<[g2]>

maybe '04

[17:17]

<cr-tablet>

yeah, you get what you pay for

[17:17]

<cr-tablet>

my tablet still outperforms my newer desktop

[17:18]

<cr-tablet>

and I got it almost a year ago

[17:18]

<[g2]>

what's the res on the display ?

[17:18]

<cr-tablet>

1400x1050

[17:18]

<[g2]>

nice

[17:18]

<[g2]>

you've got a sata notebook drive ?

[17:18]

<cr-tablet>

yes

[17:19]

<cr-tablet>

2 of them actually

[17:19]

<[g2]>

do you run Linux on it ?

[17:19]

<cr-tablet>

am right now

[17:19]

* [g2] wonders what hdparm says about /dev/sda

[17:19]

<cr-tablet>

it wont' say anything

[17:19]

<cr-tablet>

hdparm is an ide tool

[17:19]

<[g2]>

I'll been the memory performance is good

[17:20]

<cr-tablet>

Timing cached reads: 3532 MB in 2.00 seconds = 1766.61 MB/sec

[17:20]

<cr-tablet>

Timing buffered disk reads: 136 MB in 3.00 seconds = 45.31 MB/sec

[17:20]

<cr-tablet>

eh, its ok

[17:20]

<cr-tablet>

i've got nothing to compare with except my desktop which is sata2

[17:20]

<cr-tablet>

wait, i'm compiling qt at the moment

[17:21]

<[g2]>

s/been/bet/

[17:22]

<cr-tablet>

Timing cached reads: 3640 MB in 2.00 seconds = 1821.35 MB/sec

[17:22]

<cr-tablet>

Timing buffered disk reads: 138 MB in 3.04 seconds = 45.38 MB/sec

[17:22]

<[g2]>

45MBs is pretty good for a laptop

[17:22]

<[g2]>

I'm seeing 65MBs on my desktop SATA1 drive

[17:22]

<[g2]>

this laptop IDE drive is good for about 30MBs

[17:22]

<cr-tablet>

it is a cheap drive. 7200 rpm 100gig

[17:23]

<cr-tablet>

but way better than the 5200 60gig

[17:23]

<[g2]>

nod.

[17:23]

<[g2]>

I've been very happy with the SATA peformane

[17:23]

<[g2]>

performance

[17:23]

<cr-tablet>

the best part of all of this is, it weighs 3.5 lbs

[17:23]

<[g2]>

nod.

[17:23]

<cr-tablet>

dvd-ram is nice too

[17:24]

* [g2] has been eyeing the mac books

[17:24]

<cr-tablet>

eh, to much money

[17:24]

<cr-tablet>

plus, now that i've had a tablet, i couldn't ever go back

[17:24]

<[g2]>

$1500 gets you a mac book with 2G memomry

[17:24]

<cr-tablet>

$1500 gets you a tablet with 4 gig :)

[17:25]

<cr-tablet>

i just upped mine to 4gig :)

[17:25]

sorry, I'm back, so my understanding is that there are a couple impediments to adding 3rd party apps

[17:25]

1.if it's not included in the official release it gets overwritten with each UPK

[17:26]

2. there's no WM, app manager type thing

[17:26]

<cr-tablet>

JoeBorn: there is no package management right now. If you're not booting nfs, or your 3rd party app won't run from a CF card, you have a lot of hassle

[17:26]

and I guess since the rootcramfs is read only, there's really no way to install stand alone apps without compiling an entire upk?

[17:27]

<cr-tablet>

JoeBorn: correct

[17:27]

<cr-tablet>

JoeBorn: which I'll have directions for creating soon

[17:27]

<cr-tablet>

JoeBorn: if you apt-get install neuros-osd-extras and look in /opt/neuros/upk

[17:27]

and the 3rd party apps that will run from CF are those simple things like the ftp server thing you created and wget,etc type stuff?

[17:27]

<cr-tablet>

there are some basic directions in there

[17:27]

<[g2]>

JoeBorn you might be able to unionfs on top of the cramfs

[17:28]

<cr-tablet>

[g2]: those are the hassle steps i was refering too :)

[17:28]

<[g2]>

:)

[17:28]

don't we have unionfs already? I thought nerochiaro did that?

[17:28]

<cr-tablet>

I can't tell you how to use it though

[17:29]

<cr-tablet>

thats a whole different subject

[17:29]

whats the solution to the read-only issue? unionfs?

[17:29]

<cr-tablet>

JoeBorn: we don't really have one yet

[17:29]

<cr-tablet>

JoeBorn: unionfs is "a solution"

[17:29]

<cr-tablet>

in my opinion...

[17:30]

<cr-tablet>

without a package manager, easy install of software issue and r/o or r/w, or union fs, is all moot.

[17:30]

with unionfs, you'll still have problems with the "files not being in the expected location" issue?

[17:30]

<cr-tablet>

JoeBorn: no, you build the software to be in the correct place

[17:30]

<cr-tablet>

"on the unionfs"

[17:31]

<cr-tablet>

if union fs is mounted on the osd's /usr/local

[17:31]

<cr-tablet>

then you build your software for /usr/local

[17:31]

I see

[17:32]

<cr-tablet>

which is something that someone who regularly builds things would know how to do

[17:33]

<cr-tablet>

i've been working more on adding software to the main firmware

[17:33]

<cr-tablet>

so i haven't looked into using or wanting unionfs very much

[17:33]

I see

[17:34]

<cr-tablet>

i still think there is a better solution

[17:34]

<cr-tablet>

but that is purely opinion

[17:34]

what solution is that?

[17:34]

<cr-tablet>

many high quality distro's use union fs with r/o

[17:34]

<cr-tablet>

i don't know. heh..

[17:34]

r/o= read only?

[17:35]

<cr-tablet>

yeah

[17:35]

<cr-tablet>

the ability to have so many devices SD/CF/usb throws off more conventional logic as far as file paths and placement.

[17:36]

<cr-tablet>

it would take some serious sit down time to work something out. Which is what unionfs is a result of

[17:37]

<cr-tablet>

meanwhile, i've got a gui, nas features, and network system in the works already :)

[17:43]

yeah, that's great.

[17:43]

so is there any significance to where I untar the wget tar file I downloaded?

[17:47]

<cr-tablet>

no

[17:47]

<cr-tablet>

thats just the source

[17:47]

<cr-tablet>

it just has to be inside the scratchbox vm

[17:49]

and a language question, this "Target-Rootfs" that I call a "shortcut" in windows

[17:49]

what do you linux folks call that?

[17:52]

JoeBorn: i think you are looking for symbolic link (sym-link)

[17:52]

sounds right, thanks batmark

[18:16]

I guess you can't do make install from the sb-menu right?

[18:16]

you have to "exit" from that menu which also bounces you out of sb entirely I guess

[18:16]

?

[18:19]

doing a reset from sb-menu doesnt take me out of sb

[18:19]

how do you get out of sb-menu to a sb prompt?

[18:19]

which I assume is what I need to do no?

sb-menu

:P

ah sorry cant read

it should just do it automaticly

[18:21]

you are reseting the env right?

[18:21]

to get rid of all the stuff in rootfs?

[18:21]

ah, it did that time, maybe I was hitting the key twice or something

[18:21]

i might have a different version of sb to you. im not using the vm image at the moment

[18:23]

i think there is also a way to reset the env without using the menu. just command-line commands

[18:27]

you should be able to use 'sb-conf re OSD -f'

[18:58]

this file structure is driving me nuts

[18:59]

now I'm on the OSD, where do I find the wget files?

[19:02]

it's fairly confusing to me that I can see "Target-Rootfs" directory on the OSD

[19:34]

have you guys considered mentoring students for the google soc?

[19:38]

JoeBorn: so when u un-tared on the osd it made a Target-Rootfs directory

[19:38]

shaunm: yeah, we're definately planning on doing that

[19:38]

have they posted soc docs yet?

[19:39]

I haven't looked recently

[19:44]

JoeBorn: code.google.com

[19:44]

looks like mentoring applications opened today

[19:44]

wow, thanks, could have easily missed that

[19:59]

JoeBorn: we had an soc meeting last week for gnome. among other things, we discussed what went poorly last year

very brief minutes:

could be helpful to learn from others' mistakes

[20:00]

I think we're having another meeting tomorrow, if you want to come lurk

[20:04]

shaunm: thanks. I read the agenda, that's helpful background

[20:15]

Hello all! I heard something about bounties being availible, is there a webpage around for it?

[20:19]

xcasex: open.neurostechnology.com

[20:19]

Thanks!

[20:20]

i think No 6. has already been claimed though

[20:30]

strictly looking at ui related projects :)

[20:33]

what kind of ui stuff?

[20:36]

mainly doing something about the hideous uicolours at first, but the flickr "plugin" project looks interesting as well.

[20:38]

sweet, you are new around here, i take it?

[20:38]

AFAIK, no one's working on flicker yet

[20:38]

very new.

[20:39]

flickr, whatever

[20:39]

well xcasex, as a new person, does the fact that neuros doesn't use a standard gui toolkit (gtk, qt, etc) turn you off?

[20:39]

* JoeBorn mutters about kooky kids and their made up words

[20:39]

well maybe better phrased, how much of a "big deal" is it for you?

[20:40]

there has been an ongoing discussion about that around here...

[20:40]

may1937: not very since i'm the gui guy and i have a "friend" who does the actual coding :)

[20:40]

i'm only in it for the hci and interaction design.

[20:40]

damn you!

[20:40]

well maybe you could ask this "friend"? =]

[20:41]

hey i've done, gtk/gtk2, efl themes, dr16 themes, bbx themes, meizu skins etc. doesn't really bother me :p

[20:41]

xcasex: you might well just want to sketch up some stuff for us rather than actually implementing on the OSD

[20:42]

particuliarly if you're not the one that actually handles it

[20:42]

interesting :)

[20:42]

i can yes :)

[20:42]

(call me scourge of the smiley)

scourge.

so there.

hi JoeBorn

vincenzio: damn, snap!

[20:42]

vincenzio: mr. awol on aim is online i see :p

[20:43]

yes, here I am.

[20:43]

vincenzio: greetings

[20:43]