Log from #neuros IRC channel

I belive Ru is right, I don't think utf8 is enabled yet

oh, that was mentioned in the refactoring bullets by pgunn (wiki.neurostechnology.com I don't know how the charset stuff works.

[00:16]

* sourcerror realizes some puns are just too lame for others to care... pgunn's bullets :)

[00:16]

sourcerror: it basically works that all functions dealing with strings get replaced by utf-8 aware equivalents, if i remember correctly. and then nano-x text drawing needs to be changed too in some way

[00:17]

nerochiaro: you probably saw the comments from Ru... ?

[00:17]

I didn't have anything helpful to add too bad Ru missed you by a few minutes

[00:18]

yes, and i told him in the past to email me the russian font he uses. from what he says he does everything right, but can't still see russian text. however chinese with chinese font works. so i think his russian font is somehow fuct. but he didn't send that to me ever

[00:19]

hi nerochiaro, how was/is the weekend?

[00:20]

JoeBorn: pretty good. i'm still wrestling with a huge pizza i ate for dinner, but all is well. i'll try to be around from around this hour for the next weeks. is this a good time for china timezone ?

[00:21]

JoeBorn: and the weekend "was". it's early morning now.

[00:21]

yes, it's fine, but you don't have to kill yourself, its already after lunch here

[00:22]

yes i know, i just wanted to be available for china folks at least for the afternoon

[00:22]

the team gets here about 9am and there's no daylight savings here, so that was about 4 hours ago I guess.

[00:22]

so they have still 4 hours before going home, no ?

[00:22]

yes, that's right

[00:23]

you probably saw I posted the latest scheduled on OdNT

[00:23]

yes, and i was wondering what's "serial support" ?

[00:23]

for "scheduled recording" task

[00:23]

serial cable support for set-top box

[00:23]

instead of IR blaster.

[00:24]

I thought I sent you an email on that with a link to the bugzilla entry, no?

[00:25]

* JoeBorn has brick hit him in head

[00:25]

* JoeBorn realizes nerochiaro is not on US central time.

[00:26]

I was thinking you were starting at midnight, and thinking "that's pretty strange"

[00:26]

so this is your first day full time! Welcome aboard!

[00:26]

does it feel any different?

[00:26]

nope, i can't see any email with info about serial (unless i missed it)

[00:27]

and yes, a bit different, feels like i have time to do stuff more properly, and that is should get better organized ;)

[00:29]

JoeBorn: i was about to finish collecting all i have about EPG and posting to ML for comments. in case you want to override with something else, let me know

[00:30]

I just resent serial email.

[00:30]

JoeBorn: thanks. also, can you forward me an email with all internal team MSN messenger addresses ? or tell me who should i ask for that

[00:32]

serial email in

[00:36]

Xorlev: hi, you around ?

[00:36]

nerochiaro: you didn't get the previous one?

[00:37]

<American-Tech>

Lol Starting and midnight that what a call really excited about your new job..

[00:37]

JoeBorn: i did, but looking at titles of threads i didn't remember you replied to mention serial. should use gmail excellent mail search more often. sorry

[00:38]

American-Tech: time zones do stranger things than that :)

[00:38]

<American-Tech>

yes they do my friend

[00:42]

throw into it that American-Tech works a night shift...

[00:42]

nerochiaro: ?

[00:43]

okay, serial E-mail, timezones

[00:43]

Thank god you people have me around to bring sexy back.

[00:44]

Xorlev: can you do a quick admin thing on the web server ?

[00:44]

Emmett: hey! welcome back

[00:44]

Sure, whatcha need?

[00:44]

I brought some sexy back.

[00:45]

* Emmett sprinkles it on all you dorks.

[00:45]

Xorlev: can you setup a redirect from open.neurosaudio.com/SoC to wiki.neurostechnology.com ? (and also open.neurostechnology.com/SoC) ?

[00:45]

Sure

[00:46]

* nerochiaro feels all sex'd up

[00:46]

My work here is done.

[00:46]

Xorlev: thanks. Joe needs an url that is as short as possible for flyers in chinese univerisities for SoC. JoeBorn: is that short enough ?

[00:47]

nerochiaro: yep, that's good.

[00:47]

thanks

[00:47]

JoeBorn: thank Xorlev ;)

[00:48]

Xorlev: Bless you!

[00:51]

nerochiaro: regarding the logging functions we talked about the other day... I commited some stuff on svn.neurosaudio.com

[00:51]

<crweb>

nerochiaro: JoeBorn can't wait till I can feel like i have that time to spend doing stuff right and organized ;)

[00:52]

* JoeBorn brushes sex sprinkles off shirt, hopes they haven't left a stain.

[00:52]

crweb: indeed.

[00:52]

nerochiaro: There you go. Case-insensitive, and with or without a slash.

[00:53]

just to warn you I'm working on some other stuff that is not commited so `make` does not build anything useful. But you can see the README.txt where i mention `build/module stopdog` does something useful :)

[00:53]

nerochiaro: just to warn you I'm working on some other stuff that is not commited so `make` does not build anything useful. But you can see the README.txt where i mention `build/module stopdog` does something useful :)

[00:54]

Xorlev: excellent. thank you

[01:00]

sourcerror: i'll take a look at it. it's on todo list

[01:00]

thanks

[01:01]

you have your hands full. just wanted to followup that it was there. I'm happy I can now commit code somewhere.

[01:02]

the dog stop thing seems especially useful, though. i hate that current osdmain seems to shutdown ten times the dog when you hit CTRL+C

[01:03]

nerochiaro: Anyone sign up for Neuros' SoC yet?

[01:03]

Xorlev: i'm still waiting google to fix up my SoC admin interface. they emailed me and told me they're looking at it. until that happens, i'm in the dark

[01:05]

hellwolf signed up.

[01:05]

so if it shows zero, we'll at least know it's broken

[01:05]

nerochiaro: I just realized I should commit another simple example using the shutdown hooks and kickdog. the 'stopdog' uses the api just to manually quiet the dog in case my experimental osdmain crashes..

[01:05]

I haven't heard from srobertson, but I'll be shocked if he doesn't sign up

[01:06]

<American-Tech>

Could be he is devestated by the end of the summer of crumbs

[01:07]

Xorlev: you a student?

[01:08]

sourcerror: that would help

[01:08]

Not eligible for SoC sadly

[01:08]

Xorlev: why not?

[01:09]

nerochiaro: I'm doing that now...

[01:09]

Not in college yet

[01:10]

But either way, I have lots to do this summer.

[01:10]

maybe you can "partner" with some chinese student :)

[01:11]

I'll be lurking here

[01:12]

Huh...recorder in space.

[01:46]

young srobertson, back from another binge drinking episode

[01:46]

* JoeBorn presumes

[01:47]

<American-Tech>

I hope so.. Do it while your young

[01:47]

JoeBorn: oh, indeed. i'm so intoxicated right now i am sitting on the floor with a wireless keyboard -- can't manage my wheelie-chair.

[01:47]

damn thing sliding all around

[01:47]

<American-Tech>

att-boy!

[01:47]

indeed!

[01:48]

in grade school, they warned me about peer pressure. not about /elder/ pressure.

[01:49]

so, i'm gonna start whipping up some complete crap about me being a good candidate for SoC... "dedicated and focused", pfft

[01:49]

everybody knows us kids only do it for the money

[01:50]

anyway, before i actually 'ave to <GASP> make a decision on my own, what's y'alls take on this question:

[01:50]

which one is most useful to Neuros in the mid-term?

[01:51]

I was thinking, maybe do the UPnP one, except instead of just doing UPnP make a Lua framework for media browsing...

[01:51]

and thus make supporting new things like Samba, UPnP, RSS feeds, integrated BitTorrent downloads, etc., be simply dropping a new script in a folder

[01:52]

the idea is to keep as many things portable across the refactoring as possible

[01:52]

or maybe i'm just wasted?

[01:53]

* JoeBorn tries to digest srobertson's idea

[01:55]

JoeBorn: you understand the idea behind the idea for refactoring where instead of actually writing out configuration pages, ...

[01:55]

well, I'm not sure I do.

[01:55]

you simply say "In the network category, I need a radio choice between static and dhcp, and an ip address and dns addresses",...

[01:56]

and the code takes that and turns it into data on a GUI,

[01:56]

that way everything looks the same to both the programmer and the user?

[01:56]

(Model-View-Controller in a nutshell)

[01:57]

srobertson: depending on how it's done, it can be pretty interesting. however, the uPnP thing is one taks, and the framework for browsing is another. you shouldn't put them togheter like they're the same project. you can start with both independently

[01:57]

s/taks/task

[01:57]

yes, and I'm better qualified to comment on the uPNP

[01:57]

srobertson: and the refactoring of config panels is yet another

[01:57]

so, what's the use case you're imagining for uPNP

[01:58]

you'd have all your media on a PC which would act as the uPNP server? is that correct?

[01:58]

nerochiaro: correct, i'm just trying to get around the one project per child limitation

[01:58]

nerochiaro: OK. I commited to example/test1 an example usage of new: logging, i18n, shutdown hooks, kickdog

[01:59]

JoeBorn: That's one option. We can also set up Neuros to be an UPnP server, thus allowing seamless access to N-based content from Windows PCs *as well as* almost every media center extender or similar out there today

[01:59]

sourcerror: thanks

[02:00]

www.netgear.com < this thing -- which incidentally does bittorrent and youtube, plus HD...

[02:00]

srobertson: "set up Neuros" ? you mean the osd ?

[02:00]

accesses most of its content by UPnP

[02:00]

nerochiaro: yeah, sorry for the ambiguity

[02:01]

likewise, N-based should read OSD-based

[02:01]

srobertson: no, i was just trying to make sure what you meant

[02:01]

np

[02:02]

what's "N-based content"

[02:02]

JoeBorn: Think of UPnP as a media-specific alternative to SMB/windows filesharing

[02:02]

JoeBorn: content on the OSD

[02:03]

srobertson: yes, I have a reasonable idea of what uPnP does I think

[02:06]

you know, UPnP support could easily be extended to include features like network presence detect -- plug two osd's into the same network,

[02:06]

get extra features like content sharing or playback synchronization

[02:07]

if it's done right it could also satisfy the "network broadcasting" idea

[02:10]

the bottom line is that we need first a library that is decently lightweight and does both MediaServer ControlPoint and MediaBrowser ControlPoint (or whatever the hell the committee marketroids named these profiles). any ideas on that ?

[02:10]

how so the "network broadcasting?"

[02:11]

nerochiaro: build one. in Lua. it's mostly crappy XML anyway, something C is OH-SO-SUITED for.

[02:12]

JoeBorn: well, a fully-fledged UPnP media implementation (both of those fancy phrases above) can easily serve content...

[02:12]

and if it's written well, it doesn't have to be pre-rendered content.

[02:12]

srobertson: i was under the impression it was quite an hefty spec to implement from scratch, but i admit not having looked into it more than surface

[02:12]

it can be transcoded on-the-fly with fudged headers.

[02:13]

nerochiaro: it's big, but you're crazy if you think i wouldn't be copying intel's implementation whenever i could...

[02:14]

so, from a high level, the way you'd use it would be for prettier browsing of PC content to playback on the OSD

[02:14]

srobertson: which is where i was getting at. there's OSS code around that already implements it, then ?

[02:15]

and then for prettier browsing of OSD stored content on your PC or DMA type device?

[02:15]

nerochiaro: intel has an ugly (i think) API. Client only? but there are tons of half-baked implementations out there.

[02:15]

and what if you want to browse that content and then download it to your PC on the plane?

[02:15]

and would it work with Media center?

[02:15]

JoeBorn: at first. but if done right it can also do a ton of other stuff...

[02:16]

downloading works -- Vista and maybe XP can browse UPnP shares like filesystems

[02:17]

It would integrate perfectly and configuration-free with XP MCE, Vista editions with that component, WMP 11, and any DLNA-certified media device (most new network-attached media players out there today)

[02:17]

I'm not challenging that, just trying to understand that.

[02:17]

I just want to make sure we choose and spec this project carefully, we have a great opportunity here.

[02:18]

I've never fully "gotten" uPNP, is there a good device, setup I can use to play with it.

[02:18]

do you have a modded xbox?

[02:18]

or an xbox 360?

[02:19]

well, I have a partially modded xbox, one of the dudes from TI is going to finish it for me in trade

[02:19]

when that gets done, install the latest XBMC build

[02:20]

and then?

[02:21]

run around like a rooster as my daughter likes to say?

[02:21]

that'll do nicely.

[02:21]

excellent, I'm well experienced in that

[02:21]

XBMC 2 has integrated UPnP support, both as a server and a client.

[02:22]

ok, say as a client, what should I use as a server

[02:22]

alternatively, go to the link at 02:00.11 (CST), buy one of those, play around with it a while, and come up with inspired ideas...

[02:22]

ok, I can do that.

[02:23]

but back to the XBMC server, what can I use for that

[02:23]

On Windows? Probably WMP 11. Linux, i'd try VLC or ushare.

[02:23]

WMP 11 will do that out of the box? neat-o

[02:23]

just have to be genuine... *sigh*

[02:23]

genuine?

[02:24]

incidentally, Windows XP x64 doesn't do licensing checks

not pirated

srobertson: probably will in a while

[02:25]

but just to make sure I've got it right, the point of uPNP is primarily that it allows you to send and receive metadata instead of just file sharing, right

[02:26]

I mean it does some other network scanning type stuff, but that's the main thing right?

[02:27]

yeah, metadata, better streaming (uses way less CPU -- good for the ARM), network autodetection, windows integration

[02:27]

we'd probably get about that from an SoC student

[02:27]

but the idea could be extended like crazy

[02:28]

(UPnP can be used like an icky version of RPC)

[02:28]

doesn't look like this netgear thing is available yet

[02:29]

RPC?

[02:29]

remote procedure call

[02:29]

srobertson: i think if done right parts of upnp can also be re-used to do zeroconf network setup stuff, if i understand correctly

[02:29]

aye

[02:29]

which would be rather nice

[02:31]

just checking: we can't use the Jazelle on the ARM, right?

[02:34]

no one has yet tried

[02:34]

i think

[02:34]

well uPnP sounds pretty cool then.

[02:34]

I mean realistically it's probably a prerequisite for the OSD

[02:36]

btw, why was Neuros late to SoC?

[02:36]

* JoeBorn hits the dirt

[02:36]

* JoeBorn dives for cover, hides under desk

[02:37]

srobertson: because i screwed up submitting the application

[02:37]

* srobertson puts away his Uzi?

[02:37]

fire away

[02:37]

I knew nerochiaro would dutifully take the blame, but its kind of not fair.

[02:37]

nerochiaro: hey, we got in. more times people turn stuff in late, more times I can too.

[02:37]

in fact he gave me the application to review and reminded me twice about the deadline

[02:38]

then I snoozed

[02:38]

well, we got accepted in the end, that's all that matters i think ;)

[02:38]

srobertson: I was wondering about java on the OSD a while back too... hmm.

[02:38]

but hey I was able to persude them to let us back in, so I'm not worthless :)

[02:39]

on a somewhat related subject, what about RSS? It seems like thats a kind of tool that's used all over the place for stuff that we need, right?

[02:39]

<crweb>

i've never got the mobile jvm's to work

[02:39]

never underestimate Joe's powers of persuasion and contacts network

[02:39]

<crweb>

I'm working hard on it though

[02:40]

JoeBorn: rss should be rather easy

[02:40]

crweb: with or without acceleration?

[02:40]

I mean doesn't youtube, flickr etc use RSS?

[02:40]

nerochiaro: I was hoping you'd say that.

[02:40]

<crweb>

srobertson: can't get them to build

[02:40]

crweb: heya!

[02:40]

<crweb>

hey

[02:40]

crweb: captain midnight!

[02:40]

JoeBorn: the first idea, the one about the framework, that would make integrating RSS really easy

[02:40]

JoeBorn: depending on what you mean with "RSS" though. can you elaborate more ?

[02:41]

crweb won't have a problem with jetlag if he comes to xiamen, he's already on our time :)

[02:42]

<crweb>

JoeBorn: part of the plan, naturally

[02:42]

nerochiaro: well I'm not 100% sure I really know, but it just seems to me that a lot of the ideas surrounding remote "fetching" of stuff would use RSS

[02:42]

podcasts, torrents... yeah

[02:42]

<crweb>

my grades do suffer greatly for the excursions into 3am though...

[02:42]

crweb: grades? why bother? ;)

[02:42]

<crweb>

srobertson: thats what i'm sayin

[02:43]

<crweb>

i'm afraid cs degrees have outlived their purpose

[02:43]

so, for example, video feed of a youtube author would presumably be by RSS.

[02:43]

howdy all

[02:44]

JoeBorn: no, YouTube uses it's own XML-RPC.

[02:44]

ack! s/it's/its/

[02:45]

BTW, I put up some videos of my barbershop here

[02:45]

www.youtube.com

[02:45]

for a second i thought you meant "quartet"

[02:45]

<crweb>

we can parse xml though.. is all the info needed to play the video's in the data?

[02:46]

www.youtube.com

[02:46]

crweb: yeah, absolutely. it's not a problem, it's just not RSS

[02:46]

<crweb>

we can read it, or convert it ;)

[02:47]

do you haircuts come with a happy ending?

[02:47]

<crweb>

if only i wasn't in calc2 and physics... ;)

[02:47]

ok, I'm going to use the handy-dandy proxy thing to drill throuhg the great firewall here, thanks to srobertson

[02:48]

I can see the subversive wikipedia

[02:48]

<crweb>

nerochiaro: got the rc.user stuff fixed finally

[02:48]

hey so what was the fix for the samba client?

[02:48]

is the OSD scanning all IPs in the subnet?

[02:48]

<crweb>

diclophis: if its working now, I finally got them to link directly to libsmbclient.so

[02:48]

diclophis: the 65 cent haircuts do not, AFAICT, come with happy ending

[02:49]

<crweb>

diclophis: or at least that was the last news i've heard of it.

[02:49]

oh, so it has like proper smb "search"?

[02:49]

<crweb>

parsing text output isn't nearly as effective as actually using the libraries.

[02:49]

crweb: great. did you figure out how to set env vars from scripts ?

[02:49]

it seems to work fine with messenger service disabled

[02:50]

<crweb>

nerochiaro: i haven't. It doesn't look like busybox/ash supports it

[02:50]

that's really a problem

[02:50]

<crweb>

nerochiaro: it is an oddity.. you have to have stuff in /etc/profile or ~/.bashrc

[02:50]

i have only had one good hair person in my life

[02:51]

you mean that setting vars from these hardcoded files works, and no where else ?

[02:51]

<crweb>

or the alternative is to make the init console/session a child of the last script.

[02:51]

<crweb>

nerochiaro: that's what i've put together so far.

[02:52]

but can you pick up other scripts from .bashrc and include them and they will set vars too ?

[02:52]

<crweb>

it is serously limiting. I can find no docs on how to set global or even session env's from scripts

[02:52]

<crweb>

nerochiaro: no.

[02:52]

<crweb>

nerochiaro: you can only set stuff in those files, on init of the session

[02:52]

<crweb>

or by hand

[02:53]

<crweb>

because to run a script starts a shell child

[02:53]

<crweb>

when the child exits, the changes vanish

[02:54]

<crweb>

when you source something, bash reads the file like its being typed

[02:54]

<crweb>

when you run a script, bash starts a child

[02:54]

<crweb>

busybox doesn't seem to provide anything like source.

[02:54]

crweb: busybox ash has sourcing, ". /file/name". can't you do that from a .bashrc ?

[02:55]

<crweb>

like i said. i couldn't figure out how to source

[02:55]

srobertson: well, here are my thoughts on the uPnP project.

[02:55]

crweb: .

[02:55]

<crweb>

i've read docs forever

[02:56]

it seems like a great project and a good application for the summer, I guess it kind of depends on what other applicants we have to choose from.

[02:56]

<crweb>

nerochiaro: Knirch: with that information I will persue more testing.

[02:56]

and what I mean by that is simply that if it's really a development exercise, then probably a number of students could do it.

[02:56]

maybe I'm underestimating the amount of judgement and design work involved?

[02:57]

in any case, it's clear to me that, the biggest scarcity we have at neuros, is design and higher level judgment.

[02:57]

<crweb>

oh before i go to bed. anyone running 0.84?

[02:57]

crweb: I think we're running .84 at the apartment

[02:58]

I can test something for you.

[02:58]

<crweb>

I need someone to look in /etc/fstab and see what size=###### for the tmpfs line

[02:58]

I think the biggest scarcity at Neuros is that until recently I haven't been here to bring sexy back.

[02:58]

I am bringing sexy back.

[02:58]

<crweb>

going to be upset if they changed it back down to 64 after my last patch..

[02:58]

Emmett: well done?

[02:59]

<crweb>

i'm pretty sexy..

[02:59]

Thank you!

[02:59]

srobertson: so we have developers here, but there's a real scarcity of design, understanding of the user experience...

[02:59]

<crweb>

open.neurostechnology.com #5 worries me.

[03:00]

what's unique, I believe, about you young srobertson is that we can just throw "a we want a YouTube Browser" type project and get some specs thoughts etc.

[03:01]

maybe this is not as satisfying as hard core coding, but from a "what does Neuros most need" type thing, it's something to think about.

[03:02]

jwu: you there?

[03:02]

* crweb admits when srobertson starts being called young, i start to feel my age...

[03:02]

JoeBorn: okay. I am pretty sure I have an internship lined up at Lockheed Martin, so I don't really need to "win" an SoC project (although it would certainly be nice)...

[03:03]

however, considering it's been a while since I've gotten a 'we want a YouTube Browser'-type design request, I'm going to bang up a proposal anyway, hopefully by, say, Wednesday.

[03:04]

srobertson: no you miss-understand, I'd be terribly dissapointed if you don't do an SoC project with us.

[03:04]

* srobertson glances at schedule, shudders, and prays for Ritalin

[03:04]

s/miss-understand/misunderstand

[03:05]

And when Joe gets disappointed, people get _hurt._

[03:05]

wow!

[03:05]

<crweb>

he is from chicago

[03:05]

Is he?

[03:05]

<crweb>

and he's got quite teh italian following going on..

[03:06]

I know he lives there, but is he from there?

[03:06]

yes, I'm three generations Chicagoan, this is not some new city like Phoenix you know

[03:06]

<crweb>

hah

[03:06]

oh, to be from a city with a culture

[03:07]

and yes, we are considering have our new Italian agent pay you a visit to "convince" you of the merits of this opportunity.

[03:07]

* crweb lives in a culture void.

[03:07]

<crweb>

JoeBorn: my family is italian, only been in US 2 generations ;)

[03:07]

<crweb>

and we're froms chicago :)

[03:07]

an agent who is all about offers you can't refuse

[03:07]

JoeBorn: I'm certain that srobertson is smart. Smart. And reasonable. And smart. He knows what is good for him.

[03:08]

I'm sure he wouldn't do anything, well, you know. Stupid.

[03:08]

but my point is simply that from a "what does neuros need" perspective you should consider using your 'special powers'"

[03:08]

It's a shame when smart people do stupid things. A real shame.

[03:08]

I'd hate to see that happen to srobertson. It would be a shame.

[03:09]

<crweb>

especially nothing that will get himself into an accident

[03:09]

digits: If you are here for the google summer of code, you really should read the logs :)

[03:09]

* srobertson glares at Emmett. Powerlessly.

[03:09]

* JoeBorn prays that other potential candidates don't read logs

[03:09]

Sure. I bet he's really careful. Looks both ways when he crosses the street. Wouldn't want to have anything bad happen to him, so he's careful. Like I said, he's smart.

[03:09]

JoeBorn: So, the $4500 question is: what *should* I do for SoC?

[03:10]

Emmett: you're creeeeepin' me out, man...

[03:10]

I'm really thinking we should post that our normal working hours are 8pm to 5am CST, that would seem to be a real draw for you young whippersnappers.

[03:11]

I don't mean to creep you out. I'm just trying to let people know that you're smart. And reasonable. And careful. And you'd be somewhat disinclined to do something, well, stupid.

[03:11]

<crweb>

JoeBorn: its what attracted me..

[03:11]

srobertson, do you know Emmett ?

[03:11]

<crweb>

speaking of 5am CST, its getting a little to close

[03:11]

<crweb>

night

[03:11]