Log from #neuros IRC channel

JoeBorn: actually, i've been looking into that... i would strongly consider setting up a resilient multi-TCP tunnel with round-robin routing and automatic failover support for your office and set the route tables so that any address outside of China goes through that

[00:51]

if it sounds messy... it is

[00:51]

:)

[00:51]

i've been playing with it here because campus net drops about once every two minutes

[00:52]

I believe first we should re-examine this two-cans-and-some-string-connection that we employ here are our "last block" solution.

[00:52]

Well that will work too

[00:53]

although it was billed as "super reliable" when we signed on, it seems to not be living up to its billing sadly

[00:54]

JoeBorn: i just forwarded you some nasty tax stuff to you and Joanna that google need for SoC

[00:54]

nerochiaro: great! I look forward to reviewing that!

[00:54]

:(

[00:55]

JoeBorn: not really nasty, it's just a standard form to send them it seems

[00:56]

no, it looks straightforward enough.

[00:56]

good

[00:57]

that student application for iPod integration sounds nice

[00:57]

how many applications do we have?

[00:57]

5 so far, one for the DSP bridge coming up too if may1937 and the guy get along

[01:00]

how many projects are we looking to get approved, anyway ?

[01:00]

hi nerochiaro

[01:00]

hey may1937, seen the email ?

[01:01]

nerochiaro: I suppose only as many as seem worthwhile.

[01:01]

oh wow that makes 3 total for bridge

[01:01]

we don't have enough bandwidth to be flushing down the proverbial toilet

[01:02]

JoeBorn: ok, however some are simple enough not to require excessive support from mentors, like the BT client

[01:02]

may1937: it's good to see it's gathering lots of interest

[01:03]

oh, this guy wants me to write his project description :P

[01:03]

nerochiaro: ok, cool

[01:03]

JoeBorn: one folk submitted an application for an "Internship at neuros", not sure if i should just thrash him or what

[01:03]

well, have mercy if he's chinese.

[01:04]

a lot of those students are on the steep steep end of the learning curve.

[01:05]

He's american

[01:05]

Another good SoC project would be to find me a pearl milk stand with less sugar in the tea.

[01:05]

JoeBorn: can't you just ask them to put less ?

[01:05]

nerochiaro: regrettably no, it's pre-made

[01:06]

I suppose I could show up first thing in the morning and coach them through preparing the day's batch.

[01:06]

you probably need to buy the whole sugar-less batch though

[01:06]

"hoo.. easy there! Take it easy with the sugar!"

[01:07]

well, as you can see there are a lot of subtle issues. I'm feeling like this is a good SoC project for srobertson

[01:07]

or for that internship guy. i'll just tell him to look at the projects list and pick one, if he's really interested

[01:07]

srobertson: we'll get you a nice chinese-english dictionary, you'll do fine

[01:07]

Sugar? or, perhaps... SPLENDA(tm)?

[01:07]

srobertson: the hell is that ?

[01:08]

nerochiaro: trade name in the states for an artificial sweetener (sucralose, which is essentially chlorinated sucrose)

[01:09]

my favorite sweetener, really... for these late night runs, doesn't screw with your blood sugar

[01:09]

one of these sweeteners that give you the urge to run to the bathroom if you use too much ?

[01:09]

nope, not really -- actually i honestly can't tell the difference from sugar except for a tiny taste difference

[01:11]

srobertson: I think both the projects you outlined seem pretty interesting to me.

[01:11]

coo-coo-cool

[01:11]

the MVC particuliarly so (assuming nerochiaro agrees)

[01:12]

See? I told you he was reasonable. And smart.

[01:12]

the reason I say that, and you guys know this, is that we really need the influence of architects on the design, and certainly not as bystanders.

[01:12]

nerochiaro: user page will fill you in (unless joe has already sent you a link, apparently i'm having fun spamming people with this): wiki.neurostechnology.com

[01:13]

you have to prove it with code to overcome the usual objections of "it'll be too slow, too big" etc.

[01:13]

Emmett: hush.

[01:14]

srobertson: but obviously that project is pretty binary it seems to me, not so much for you getting paid, but for it being worthwhile.

[01:14]

get it to a workable state= enormous benefit

[01:15]

get it to >workable state = time for euphemisms about how we "learned a lot" or some such

[01:15]

s/>/<

[01:15]

that spin cycle in steps * to * (methinks i should have numbered them) won't last more than two or three runs... i'm not totally braindead (although sometimes it seems that way)

[01:15]

* JoeBorn feels great sadness at state of his flaccid brain

[01:16]

srobertson: no, I got that, and would've known that you knew that anyway, but given its importance, I figured worth mentioning anyway

[01:16]

srobertson: both are cool. you might want to sync with sourcerror for the configuration stuff, he recall him talking about that in the past. might be a fluke of my brain however

[01:16]

srobertson: i'd vote for upnp, especially phase 2

[01:17]

nerochiaro: why do you say that?

[01:18]

well, anything that gives us effortless sharing of network stuff is a blessing, no ?

[01:18]

nerochiaro: yeah.

[01:18]

I guess its a question of user functionality v. cleaning up under the hood.

[01:19]

nerochiaro: I missed the context of your message :)

[01:19]

upnp

[01:19]

oh, sorry

[01:19]

i mean the configuration abstraction

[01:19]

JoeBorn: does bullshitting with nerochiaro fulfill his work role of community liaison?

[01:19]

i should hope so :)

[01:20]

OH, one thing I didn't mention is that the configuration could easily be extended with other views, par exemplar: web-based config

[01:20]

yea i was talking about it.

[01:20]

and I suppose I'd be the first to say that user functionality should really come first.

[01:20]

so we could like... actually sell some OSDs

[01:20]

srobertson: yes, that's a good idea

[01:20]

* JoeBorn mutters to self.

[01:21]

srobertson: Oh, I see I read your link just now

[01:21]

speaking of which anyone use xmms2 with last.fm?

[01:22]

i'm actually going to install xmms2 and try to use it as my day-to-day media system right now, so i can try to be a little more informed when questions about it fly by

[01:23]

does neuros have it's own internet radio station yet? :)

[01:24]

on lastfm ?

[01:24]

sourcerror: yeah, isn't there a lastfm group radio station?

[01:25]

ah, I didn't understand (don't know what last.fm is)

[01:25]

GASP! Send in the reeducation squads.

[01:25]

* srobertson suddenly realizes that since neuros has been doing video products for the last couple years #neuros isn't just for music nuts anymore

[01:26]

neuros has audio products?

[01:26]

(j/k)

[01:26]

srobertson: i had an hard time getting used to that :(

[01:26]

I just don't get wondering what other people are listening to.... sorry.

[01:26]

one of the saddest things I've seen in while: wiki.neurostechnology.com

[01:27]

1300 views :(

[01:27]

sourcerror: i use lastfm for its recommendations

[01:27]

you know, cleaning up the wiki could have been an soc project in itself

[01:27]

* JoeBorn looks to see what kind of crappy music srobertson likes

[01:27]

JoeBorn: eww, that page is sad indeed

[01:27]

may1937: summer of... _code_?

[01:27]

symbolic even

[01:28]

ok ok

[01:28]

nerochiaro: regrettably yes symbolic.

[01:28]

srobertson: I think it looks cool, but I guess I'm an oldster.

[01:29]

you guys are techs

[01:29]

I was wondering if you could help me out

[01:29]

shoot.

[01:29]

okay, so I'm married.

[01:30]

I would be very interested in a divorce if you guys knew of any way to both woo and marry BitTorrent.

[01:30]

I love her so much.

[01:31]

srobertson: Emmett will be much better once we get his medicine dailed in properly.

[01:31]

it's going to be iterative, you can't expect miracles overnight.

[01:31]

* sourcerror :)

[01:31]

I've been taking the drugs you send

[01:32]

he's been "self medicating" for sometime, so there's going to be an adjustment period.

[01:32]

have you thought that maybe my love for BitTorrent might be more powerful than your crappy pharmaceuticals?

[01:32]

Emmett: those were intended for your dog!

[01:32]

I have a *cat*

[01:32]

* JoeBorn is pleasantly surprised by srobertson 's crappy music

[01:32]

I think we just explained definitively what Web 2.0 means!

(my cat.)

JoeBorn: What did you expect? Florida-based screamo? 16,000 listens to Jack Johnson?

[01:33]

(she is in ur wiki, readin' ur documentation)

[01:33]

Jerk Johnson

[01:33]

For the record: Florida bands are, on the whole, TERRIBLE

[01:34]

* chreekat has missed some fantabulous conversation

[01:35]

JoeBorn: Now we can be music friends!

[01:35]

Emmett: my cats would go completely mad with rage if i had them wear that huge collar medal

[01:35]

it's not that big

[01:35]

it's that she is very small

[01:35]

She is much bigger now.

[01:38]

*sigh* /me is in hopeless romantic mode

[01:39]

chreekat: bless you

[01:39]

chreekat: literal or figurative romance?

[01:39]

"JoeBorn has 1 friend"

[01:39]

* JoeBorn holds on to srobertson for dear life

[01:39]

<daurn>

hello all

[01:39]

that's a LEGACY, friend

[01:46]

nerochiaro: I read your EPG stuff. Looks great! I had something to say about interacting with other modules. if I can compose something useful I'll post on ML.

[01:46]

* chreekat decides discussing his personal life on an archived channel is unwise

[01:46]

sourcerror: please do. thanks

[01:47]

It's okay, chreekat. You can talk about our fodbidden love.

[01:47]

Emmett: my friends have a cat that looks very similar :)

[01:47]

forbidden, even

[01:47]

Emmett: yours looks nicer.. Zeke is a monster. A good monster, to be sure, but you can see the mischief in his eyes

[01:48]

that's what happens when you name a cat zeke

[01:51]

kathryn's dog was named Zeke

[01:52]

nerochiaro: so do you know if we will have the ARM/DSP cycles to record and watch a recorded show at the same time?

[01:52]

not the same show. record program A, watch program B.

[01:52]

sourcerror: apparantly it's supported depending on resolution and bitrate

[01:52]

sourcerror: it's a good question, and one i don't have an answer for

[01:52]

Darwin is a good cat. She has not yet learned to speak English.

[01:53]

One day, perhaps.

[01:53]

well, let me correct that. Theoretically supported by the vendor.

[01:53]

but I assumed we'd use that for pausing and rewinding live TV if we get it going.

[01:53]

JoeBorn: sounds good.

[01:56]

so anyway which way did everyone with an opinion about which SoC project I should apply for opine?

[01:57]

* srobertson ^L'd the wrong window, and cleared his chatlog

[01:58]

as i said, i'd vote upnp

[02:00]

srobertson: that description of the microwave is awesome. i completely empathize

[02:01]

I'll switch my vote to uPnP

[02:01]

chreekat: also note that srobertson 's page has more views than any other user page!

[02:01]

haha

[02:02]

chreekat: thank you, sir!

[02:03]

srobertson: I vote for the OSD controlled microwave :)

[02:03]

JoeBorn: that's what I get for advertising. by the way, i don't know if you saw it before, but i made some changes to my userpage (save you some clicks wiki.neurostechnology.com )

[02:03]

actually it's mostly just my own narcissism, after i edit the page i refresh it 300 times so that I can reread my own glorious, wonderful language

[02:03]

should have put adwords on it

[02:04]

sourcerror: we could do a spin of OSDs using Pentium D's

[02:04]

* sourcerror ouch

[02:05]

* JoeBorn loses composure at seeing srobertson user link one time to many

[02:05]

s/to/too

[02:05]

who came up with this stupid thing that we're supposed to correct mistakes in our IRC writing, that's ridiculous

[02:06]

just in case our old english teachers are reading the logs

[02:07]

well, I think most people only do it if they use the completely wrong word, or mangle a word so badly you can't tell what it is

[02:07]

yahh, frmo nwo o nwe should jus't leave our misteaks allone

[02:09]

aiee

[02:09]

I tried that once

[02:09]

Tride to stop uisg the backspace at all

[02:09]

(doing it now again)

[02:09]

it's a hard habit to break

[02:09]

They're there in their room. They're there in their room. They're there in their room.

[02:09]

* chreekat flaunts dvorak

[02:09]

ooh now see, I wouldn't make mysielf try that

[02:09]

Ok, so I did try it. (^b and ^u don't count as backspate, do they)?

[02:10]

mmmmmm, misteaks

[02:10]

okay, i am now done with someone else's part of one of my three group projects (yes, I pay for the privilege of working with a group of people who have unanimously decided that COKE AND MENTOS is the most efficient power supply we could find, both in mass and in cost)

[02:10]

aaaaand i am going to sleep now?

[02:11]

coke and mentos? should have gone for taco bell and your friend phil

[02:11]

srobertson: night

[02:12]

nerochiaro: so advice on how I should proceed on this xmms2 thing?

[02:12]

may1937: my friend phil? was that a stab in the dark, or are you stalking me? because, yeah, that would do it...

[02:12]

JoeBorn: the design of the interface ?

[02:12]

well, first the spec: ie. what does it do?

[02:13]

i'd say there's a fair chance most people have a gastrointenstinally challenged friend named phil

[02:13]

srobertson: do you have time to set the stuff up if we give you remote access to a machine?

[02:13]

JoeBorn: "set the stuff up?"

[02:13]

yeah, cmon, whadda dumb? The stuff for pete's sake!

[02:14]

xmms2 and these various plug ins,

[02:14]

* srobertson is going to find a time and place to say "whadda dumb" as a question, and see the response

[02:14]

getting it to work with last.fm, which is supported in esperanza

[02:15]

getting the medialib to work, etc.

[02:15]

I guess it really should be whaddaya dumb

[02:15]

JoeBorn: well, shouldn't we just start with basic support for playing single file, playlists, displaying metadata, and maybe lastfm support

[02:16]

?

[02:16]

<jwu>

nerochiare: the epg design is very complicated

[02:16]

no earlier than Friday or so, but i will have time later -- although I don't entirely know what you're talking about

[02:16]

<jwu>

:)

[02:17]

nerochiaro: sure that makes sense, but it'd be nice to layout a roadmap, so we don't flail around, and also I don't know what "supporting lastfm" means, I mean that could be a big task in and of itselve.

[02:17]

jwu: it has lots of pieces, but most of the pieces are not very hard to implement

[02:17]

s/itselve/elves

[02:17]

s/elves/santa clause

[02:18]

s/santa clause/contractual clause

[02:18]

JoeBorn: it's just sending down to lastfm some data about the song you just played (or storing them somewhere and send them down in batch when there's network on)

[02:18]

* JoeBorn feels need to clarify himself.

[02:19]

nerochiaro: and streaming from lastfm, you mean?

[02:19]

srobertson: ok, just check in on friday and we'll see where we are

[02:19]

JoeBorn: no, i was meaning getting your played songs to appear in your lastfm profile. streaming from lastfm is another different can of worms

[02:19]

or after friday, or whatever.

[02:20]

my cat is demanding play time

[02:20]

nerochiaro: oh, we can't support any streaming?

[02:20]

and I just heard a beer being opened... I must away

[02:20]

chreekat: have fun

[02:20]

JoeBorn: as a side effect of the UPnP project, adding LastFM streaming support would be pretty trivial

[02:20]

JoeBorn: depending on how xmms2 does it, we might

[02:21]

to mainapp, i don't know a thing about xmms2

[02:21]

* chreekat points out that "I must away" is archaic english, not a typo

[02:21]

srobertson: JoeBorn: i think xmms2 requires some libraries we don't have on the osd for streaming

[02:21]

chreekat: we're mostly nerds here, we got that one

[02:23]

that is, it needs libcurl, which we don't build right now

[02:23]

* srobertson is away: but seriously now. i'm turning my monitor off and thus I can't be distracted by you no mores

[02:23]

we could build it, however there's always that flash space problems to keep in mind

[02:23]

it all adds up

[02:24]

nitishp: welcome

[02:25]

nerochiaro: yeah, that flash space issue is really a nightmare, it's coming up on an almost daily basis

[02:25]

xmms2 media dbase, EPG

[02:26]

JoeBorn: i hate it. it's something to think about for next hardware, really. how much does one of these tiny microSD cards cost, anyway ?

[02:26]

I'm really wondering if part of the OSD setup shouldn't be "specify a location where we can put required files"

[02:26]

JoeBorn: Hello.

[02:27]

nerochiaro: well for sure we'll solve it with next gen, but what about for current gen.

[02:27]

nerochiaro: 1GB microSD < USD 20

[02:27]

JoeBorn: the problem with that is that we need to provide a fallback in case the user has no available media, which brings us back to the same problem we have now

[02:27]

sourcerror: exactly

[02:27]

sourcerror: well I think he meant that figuratively, but 256-512 CF card for $5-8 or something would be eminently doable.

[02:28]

I think you should encourage a usage model with say CF card or SD card plugged in. I'm personally looking at getting CF microdrive and leaving in all the time.

[02:28]

nerochiaro: well I'm just questioning that assumption. As part of the setup for some of this stuff, perhaps we can introduce them to the concept that they need to provide us with a place to stick files

[02:28]

JoeBorn: for now we're stuck. we can disable functionality if the user doesn't have the space to store stuff, i guess, but forcing the user to waste a media slot or fumble with cards is a big no-no for mass consumers, i think

[02:28]

i mean encourage by recommending in documentation shipped with product.

[02:29]

nerochiaro: really? think so?

[02:29]

re no no for mass

[02:29]

JoeBorn: i don't know. vmarks actually stuck this proverbial flea in my ear

[02:30]

the "wife test" and all that jazz

[02:30]

* JoeBorn imagines nerochiaro with fleas

[02:30]

i shave my head often, no fleas thanks

[02:31]

I'm interested in the Google Summer of Code and the process of creating a ARM/DSP Bridge for the Linux kernel. Before I apply, I have one quick question: I am not a university student just yet (I'm currently a high school senior, though I have been admitted to colleges in which I plan to do a double major in EE and CS), can I still apply for Neuros?

[02:32]

DeepB: morning

[02:32]

nitishp: I don't know off hand, but isn't it answered in the SoC FAQ?

[02:32]

<DeepB>

JoeBorn: oorning

[02:33]

nitishp: in the google faq says: "If you have not yet begun attending college or university, make your best estimate of the date you will be graduating."

[02:33]

Well, certain projects from what I've seen have explicitly said that they only want university students.

[02:33]

nitishp: so i guess college is ok too

[02:33]

nitishp: we take college too (do we JoeBorn ?)

[02:34]

nitishp: It should be ok, but that dsp bridge project is a)awfully hard and b) starting to look more competitive than any other

[02:34]

Well, by colleges, I meant I've been admitted to four year research institutions that offer PhDs. I've already applied for the Google Summer of Code itself. I just haven't filled out any number of the 20 project applications allotted to prospective students.

[02:34]

nitishp: it's ok by us

[02:35]

oh, and also c) you need to sign an NDA to get information on the processor we're using.

[02:35]

nitishp: as for the DSP bridge, our bridge man is may1937 (Adam) if you need more info about that. i think you have 4 competitors already on that project, but if you want to go for it, please do

[02:35]

I used the term college interchangably with university, sorry. I meant I have been accepted to universities if that makes it clearer.

[02:35]

JoeBorn: is that NDA requirement included in the project description ?

[02:36]

nerochiaro: I guess not, but certainly should be

[02:36]

Okay, thanks for the information everyone.

[02:36]

nitishp: any time.

[02:37]

may1937 is on US time, so you can look for him later

[02:37]

anders_: !!

[02:37]

I'm on US time. I'm here.

[02:37]

But on the other hand, I am fuckin' HARDCORE!

[02:37]

<anders_>

JoeBorn!

[02:37]

So yes.

[02:37]

:)

[02:37]

<anders_>

Crappy irc.se.freenode.net stopped working it seems.

[02:37]

Emmett: yes, but you are also leaving on the street

[02:38]

in a cardboard box. Schedules have no meaning for you :)

[02:38]

That's true.

[02:38]

anders_: speculation on xmms2 is running wild

[02:38]

JoeBorn: added NDA stuff to wiki

[02:38]

<daurn>

grab your pdfs now!

[02:38]

<daurn>

;)

[02:39]

and we deleted the "corporate profits" part of the what xmms2 won't do from your wiki :)

[02:39]

we are really banking on that.

[02:39]

<anders_>

JoeBorn: Haha.

[02:40]

anders_: i'm trying to build xmms2 using scons, is that still supported (drhouse release from sf.net)

[02:40]

<anders_>

nerochiaro: DrHouse is to be built using scons, yes.

[02:40]

will we be able to use the streaming functionality in xmms2, in your infinite judgement, on the OSD?

[02:40]

<anders_>

nerochiaro: DrJekyll (soon to be released - currently in testing phase) is using waf.

[02:41]

<anders_>

JoeBorn: Yes, should work.

[02:41]

anders_: also a question about the media library. does it get filled automatically as files are played for the first time ? or at least can be used that way ?

[02:41]

anders_: scons doesnt' seem to build the client library though, at least not for me

[02:42]

<anders_>

nerochiaro: Yes, it works like a "media cache".

[02:42]

JoeBorn: getting back to that flash space issue. do you think it's acceptable to have to force the user to keep a slot occupied for data files ?

[02:42]

<anders_>

nerochiaro: Interesting. It doesn't get built at all, or it fails to build?

[02:42]

JoeBorn: if we do that, we need to at least bundle a card with osd purchases

[02:43]

anders_: running anything that uses it tells me it can't find it. so either doesn't get build or it is installed somewhere weird

[02:43]

libxmmsclient.so.0:

[02:43]

<anders_>

nerochiaro: It is installed in /usr/local/lib by default. Which isn't in your lib path..

[02:43]

nerochiaro: well vmarks concerns are valid, there's no doubt, but that alternatives I fear are pretty scary.

[02:44]

<anders_>

nerochiaro: wiki.xmms2.xmms.se

[02:44]

anders_: crap, i need caffeinated drinks. sorry for being such an idiot

[02:45]

i'm always somehow convinced i added that a long time ago to path

[02:45]

<anders_>

nerochiaro: np. I'm collecting idiot-points. One day I'll take a bottle with wood alcohol and just sit all day being an idiot on irc :)

[02:45]

hey!

[02:45]

anders_: idiot-points as karma. i like that

[02:46]

JoeBorn: what alternatives, actually ?

[02:46]

JoeBorn: and the card bundling is economically feasible ?

[02:46]

commercially, i mean

[02:46]

* JoeBorn thinks

[02:47]

<anders_>

What is the card going to be used for?

[02:48]

media lib, other database files it seems we're going to be needing for regular OSD operation and won't fit flash

[02:49]

nerochiaro: well the cost of a 256MB CF card is something like $4-5, so given the level of increased functionality, I'd say it's well worth it.

[02:49]

JoeBorn: there's also the problem of, do we force people to "waste" the CF or the SD slot ?

[02:49]

I suppose we could just bundle it with every unit and treat it as a "memory cartridge" to the casual user

[02:51]

<anders_>

As for xmms2 medialib: sqlite supports in memory databases - but it will need some stuff to weed out oldest stuff so that it doesn't grow without bounds. It will limit the usefulness of the medialib, searches will only work for latest entries..

[02:51]

well, I think advanced users could be explained that the CF card is just one possible "permanent" location for files.

[02:52]

Again, I'm also wondering if as part of the setup, users couldn't select a "permanent storage location" for "system files."

[02:54]

JoeBorn: i'm more concerned for basic users. advanced users figure stuff out. a basic user will have no problem taking the card out because it needs to plop in a new one to record a show for their player that uses CF cards.

[02:54]

any PC user is used to choosing a location to put stuff that's permanent

[02:56]

it seems you have to make the main app aware of which functionality needs the "permanent storage" and it warns the user when it is removed, and gracefully degrades to some lesser functionality

[02:56]

sourcerror: yeah, I think that's right