Log from #neuros IRC channel

I cringe every time I see Numb3rs.

i bet

Not only at the plot, but how math is dragged, kicking and screaming, into solving the case

It's sooo wrong!

[08:28]

keeps the public in awe

[08:28]

they cant balance their checkbook

[08:29]

Sad but true

[08:29]

so when they hear all that rubish they have to believe it

[08:32]

You can't blame them, there's bad math everywhere. I just read in the paper that a research group released results saying that the rise in heart disease is related to the rise in pollution.

[08:32]

All they found was that the numbers of people with heart disease has gone up. Also the amount of pollution has gone up. So they just linked them statistically.

[08:33]

hey its in the math, lol

[08:33]

I could link the number of lollipops sold to rates of heart disease if I wanted

[08:34]

good thing I quit that

maybe its the number of computers sold with VISTA

yanvrn1: greyback: if you really don't care about legality, you can go with xmltv data

is killing us all

(re to some stuff above)

just woke up, skimming thru the logs with a cup of hot tea

[08:36]

woke up its 9:30am here in the US must be afternoon there

[08:36]

<gremlin[it]>

hi nerochiaro !

[08:36]

gremlin[it]: hi

[08:37]

you a night owl or out partying

[08:37]

yanvrn1: it'a 3:30 PM here

[08:37]

nerochiaro: hey, xmltv is probably the best option, but it'll be a community thing

greyback: if it's community, xmltv is ok-ish i think

nerochiaro: while I've got you, have you guys made a plugin of the neuros widgets for Qtdesigner?

nerochiaro: yeah, defintely -ish :)

greyback: nope, still not stable enough, just use promoted widgets

[08:39]

greyback: they just show as grey squares, but you have got imagination to fill them ;)

[08:39]

Fair enough, I was just exploring this morning

[08:40]

greyback: later there may be these plugins, but not priority

[08:40]

Other question, have you a list of stuff that's disabled from the Qt libs? I could figure it out from the config, but just in case...

[08:46]

greyback: hmm, it's a bit out of date, but i should have one in email

[08:46]

greyback: let me fish it

[08:46]

That'd be great, thanks

[08:49]

yanvrn1: Cuz I'm proud of myself: www.maths.tcd.ie

[08:50]

Just a couple of pics of parts for my projector. The stripped LCD screen & lightbox

[08:50]

So do you use MathCad?

Nope

longhand?

spread sheets

Pen & paper

sometimes Maple or Mathematica

Ive tried em all at one time

My area is quite abstract, I don't deal with numbers much to be honest

greyback: email address ?

Use mathcad when I need too

nerochiaro: gerboland AT gmail DOT com

[08:53]

nerochiaro: appreciated!

[08:53]

<gremlin[it]>

nerochiaro : about my work, at now I'm building OE image, using neuros gcc as an external compiler, cause wasn't able t obuil it too inside OE ... but OE allow also to use external toolchains (it's powerfull) :P

[08:54]

gremlin[it]: so aside of the compiler, you have packaged everythign else for OE ?

[08:55]

<gremlin[it]>

no ...

[08:55]

greyback: no problem. email sent

greyback what is it that you built, can not read the LCD screen, looks like its something the Cat would stay away from

<gremlin[it]>

well : i try with libcooler but was hard, and I have the FOSDEM deadline ...

gremlin[it]: so you have only kernel running ?

gremlin[it]: and bbox ?

<gremlin[it]>

so at now i build all "general system" with OE ... but i'll use neuros application and library as is

<gremlin[it]>

well binutils and glibc was "ported" into OE

MattJ: i saw you were chatting the package manager with Joe, yesterday. i was about to go out though. what was that about ?

<gremlin[it]>

and also bbos, tinilogin, dropbear ... and i don't know what else :)

<gremlin[it]>

bbos -> busybox

gremlin[it]: does dropbear really work

?

<gremlin[it]>

it do an exception every time i compile but it work !

<gremlin[it]>

sorry ...

<gremlin[it]>

it do an exception every time i connect but it work !

<MattJ>

nerochiaro: Can't remember... we were talking more about the web interface

<gremlin[it]>

i used to copy files on neuros

<MattJ>

I said I was going to make a module for the package manager on the web interface

MattJ: oh, ok. i'm gonna try poking the web interface a bit today, will you be around ?

[09:00]

MattJ: regretfully i never had time to do it before

[09:00]

gremlin[it]: last i checked, it needed a good random number generator, and we didn't have one

[09:00]

nerochiaro: dropbear does work, but needs proper source of randominity. I'd to use prngd as a crappy alternative

[09:01]

<gremlin[it]>

it was able to create the initial keys :)

[09:01]

greyback: how come it works for gremlin[it] then ?

[09:01]

gremlin[it]: the kernel you build with OE is different than the one we use in the standard neuros, right ?

[09:02]

Unless he's got /dev/random going properly, I'm not sure.

[09:02]

<MattJ>

nerochiaro: Yes, I'll be around

[09:02]

<gremlin[it]>

mhhh about the same ... i don't remember if i change something ...

gotta go, bye all

greyback: bye

cu

gremlin[it]: can you check if you have /dev/random or /dev/urandom ?

[09:09]

<gremlin[it]>

yes (as soon as i boot neuros) ... :)

[09:09]

gremlin[it]: thanks

[09:10]

<gremlin[it]>

can depend on a different udev ?!

[09:10]

not sure

[09:18]

MattJ: just one note re-reading your post in ML about lpkg...you say ipkg is in python, but it's actually in C

[09:18]

MattJ: www.handhelds.org

[09:20]

MattJ: not that it really matters, just wanted to let you know

[09:20]

<gremlin[it]>

i already talk about is with MattJ ;)

[09:21]

gremlin[it]: it does not surprise me ;)

[09:23]

<gremlin[it]>

hhihihi :P

[09:26]

<MattJ>

nerochiaro: gremlin[it] corrected me ;)

[09:26]

<MattJ>

I was looking at the wrong thing (doh)

[09:26]

<MattJ>

If I had known, I would have looked at ipkg instead

[09:27]

MattJ: i'm actually not sure what is the best way. ipkg surely is maintained by more people

<MattJ>

Yes

<MattJ>

So I don't know the best way either :)

<gremlin[it]>

as i said, it's not perfect but it already work :)

anyway, im poking with lpkg now, i can't seem to get it installed

<MattJ>

Lpkg has some extras, like starting/stopping the service a package provides

MattJ: it actually installs, but gives lua erros when i run it

like it can't find libraries

<MattJ>

Which as gremlin[it] pointed out, doesn't usually go in a package manager (but to me it makes perfect sense on the OSD)

<MattJ>

nerochiaro: Hmm?

<MattJ>

What error?

gremlin[it]: how does ipkg work with system that have readonly file system ?

[09:32]

MattJ: pastebin.ca

[09:33]

<gremlin[it]>

at now i see rarely but somewhere you have to write hich packages are installed and which aren't ... at least in tmpfs or with jffs2+unionfs ...

[09:33]

<MattJ>

Did you . ./setup.sh ?

[09:33]

<MattJ>

*nerochiaro

MattJ: sorry, hard to step away for a bit. yes, i did, but let me check i may have done one thing wrong

<MattJ>

nerochiaro: Did it work?

<MattJ>

Heh

<MattJ>

. ./setup.sh is important (including the preliminary .)

<MattJ>

That is why I needed the /etc/profile to be writable

[09:48]

<MattJ>

However the osdroot -> /usr/local would also fix that

[09:50]

MattJ: pastebin.ca

[09:50]

MattJ: we can't have /etc/profile to be writeable

[09:50]

<MattJ>

No, sorry, I mean to have it include a writeable one

[09:51]

<MattJ>

nerochiaro: You ran ./setup.sh

[09:51]

<MattJ>

It needs to be: . ./setup.sh

[09:51]

<MattJ>

With a space between the . and .

hmm, i feel dumb, but what does that do exactly ?

the . at the start

anyway: pastebin.ca

<MattJ>

It's the same as "source setup.sh"

<MattJ>

Except busybox doesn't have source

oh, right

<MattJ>

Hmm

<MattJ>

It looks like you are using AZ?

i am

[09:56]

this is with correct linewraps, sorry: pastebin.ca

[09:56]

<MattJ>

Ah, that makes more sense

[09:57]

<MattJ>

It seems to be confused

[09:58]

<MattJ>

lpkg is installed in: ..../programs/packages/* ?

/mnt/tmpfs/media/ext/.osd-extended/programs/packages $ ls

bin lib lpkg.lpkg setup.sh var

<MattJ>

It's looking for packages.db in /media/ext/.osd-extended/programs/lpkg/*

hmm, might be due to a previous install i did

how do i remove it all

<MattJ>

Ah, ok

?

ls

whoops

<MattJ>

rm /mnt/OSD/registry.lua.dat

<MattJ>

and then re-run . ./setup.sh

<MattJ>

and it will sort itself out

works

<MattJ>

Yay :)

might be a good idea for setup to overwrite that file always

<MattJ>

Possibly, but Lpkg may not be the only program using it

who else would ?

<MattJ>

When I get it working on AZ, I will look at using an SQLite db instead, which should be more reliable

<MattJ>

Any Lua app which uses the config.lua lib

<MattJ>

I made it as a generic lib for storing settings

it's something part of standard lua ? i'm not sure i understand

<MattJ>

No, it's a lib I made

<MattJ>

To keep settings on the OSD unified

<MattJ>

The web interface uses the same lib

[10:03]

<MattJ>

For the same kind of things as apps usually use /home/user/.settings files for

[10:06]

ok, but why not one settings file for each app ? one for pkg man and the other for the web interface

[10:07]

so you can safely overwrite when you need

[10:07]

<MattJ>

I don't want to clutter /mnt/OSD :)

[10:07]

<MattJ>

I could probably make a sub-dir

that would be ok

cluttering is not a problem, as long as these files don't get too big

<MattJ>

I'll do that, it only requires changing the config lib

<MattJ>

Ok

<MattJ>

They are just serialized Lua

can lpkg update iself safely once it's installed '

?

<MattJ>

It will be able to

<MattJ>

I need to bootstrap it to be a package itself

[10:11]

<MattJ>

But I can do that via the package feed

[10:13]

MattJ: i'm trying to find out a way to be able to include it in standard distribution but leave it updateable and managed by you (or community)

with minimal full on neuros part

er, fuss

<MattJ>

Yeah

<MattJ>

Difficult one

[10:15]

<MattJ>

You said there will be a writable area of the CF card in AZ?

[10:16]

yes, but it's still unsure it will be completely wiped clean on each upgrade

[10:17]

<MattJ>

I see

[10:18]

the concern is if user goes overboard with installing user packages, or user data, it may end up with not enough space for upgrading/installing neuros stuff at some point

[10:18]

<MattJ>

Yeah

[10:19]

<MattJ>

ie. the sambaserver package is 3MB+

[10:20]

ya, and i can foresee people dumping lots of crap in there and forgetting

[10:20]

<MattJ>

So the osdroot mapping to /usr/local could still be the best way

[10:22]

what you mean with osdroot ?

[10:22]

<MattJ>

With your unionfs script

but that would require users to have their own cards to store packages and data

quite messy

<MattJ>

We need some way for the user to specify where to install lpkg and other packages to

lpkg itself is not a problem

the packages are

<MattJ>

If we can't rely on AZ's CF card, then the user-attached storage is the only option available

[10:24]

i didn't say we can't rely on it. i'm saying we need to find a way to rely on it that's safe in the face of official upgrades

[10:24]

<MattJ>

> <nerochiaro> yes, but it's still unsure it will be completely wiped clean on each upgrade

[10:25]

<MattJ>

So you think that is going to be changed?

[10:26]

not sure yet

[10:26]

we need to ensure neuros sowftware update safety first

[10:27]

one option is to check if we have a certain amount of space free when updating, and if we don't, we wipe out user software

[10:27]

so people will lose their user software only if they went overboard

[10:28]

<MattJ>

Yeah

[10:28]

<MattJ>

Well it shouldn't be a problem reinstalling, so long as configs are kept

[10:29]

configs as long as they are small can live in /mnt/OSD and they won't be removed

[10:30]

you mean lpkg config or user app configs ?

[10:31]

<MattJ>

user apps

[10:33]

same rule applies. however user apps that more than few kb of space must use the ext area for their data (and risk losing it if they go overboard too)

[10:33]

er, "that use more than a few kb of space for data"

[10:34]

<MattJ>

Yeah, agreed

[10:34]

<MattJ>

I don't see that happening though

[10:35]

<MattJ>

state is stored in $PKGROOT/var/*

[10:35]

<MattJ>

Config is seperate (though of course could be wherever we decide)

[10:37]

ok

[10:37]

i'll think a bit on this and check with the other folks. i'll update you on what we end up with and you can update the pkgman accordingly

[10:37]

<MattJ>

Ok

<mp0>

Every hour, my Neuros OSD's main screen pops up. The OSD prints "Upgrade timer ....................................................." on the serial port.

mp0: you can disable it in the settings i think

<MattJ>

Settings->Firmware Upgrade iirc

<mp0>

That's set to check weekly

[10:45]

MattJ: what are the env vars you need to setup at each boot for lpkg

[10:45]

<mp0>

I'm going to set it again and hope it goes away.

[10:45]

<MattJ>

nerochiaro: PKGROOT=/path/to/osdroot

MattJ: can't you set that in the rc.local file ?

<MattJ>

nerochiaro: I tried it, but it at least doesn't affect telnet sessions (unless I did something wrong)

mp0: if it doesn't (even after rebooting) then please submit a bug

in bugzilla

[10:47]

MattJ: it should, but if not, it's a bug too

[10:47]

<MattJ>

I'll check once more

MattJ: you're right, doesn't seem to work

<MattJ>

Yup

<MattJ>

I just realised I still have: export PKGROOT=/media/USB/osdroot

<MattJ>

there

<MattJ>

But I still need to source setup.sh

seem it doesn't even work for sessions started from console

[10:49]

<MattJ>

Yep, /etc/profile is read in those cases

[10:51]

MattJ: got to check with crweb, he knows more of this stuff than i do

[10:52]

<MattJ>

Ok

MattJ: wooble seems to work, except the "browse" menu

<MattJ>

Oh?

<MattJ>

Ah

<MattJ>

That could be an AZ issue

also remote won't display anything

<MattJ>

That is a known issue (when authentication is turned on)

<MattJ>

I need to figure that one out... :/

<MattJ>

I use lighttpd's built in authentication

the link to "restart the server" isn't working either

<MattJ>

But the browsers don't send the credentials with AJAX requests

"No such handler: wooble.restartserver"

<MattJ>

On the last tab with just an icon? That's all work in progress

ok

how do i disable auth ?

<MattJ>

vi lighttpd.conf, and remove the auth.* options, or comment them all out

<MattJ>

at the moment :)

<MattJ>

I need to figure out how to bypass lighttpd's auth for AJAX requests, but in a secure way

i don't have any in /mnt/OSD/lighttpd.conf